No difference with the shorter string.

Limbs are mis-labelled.

You have 50 lb limbs.

 

A longer string will lower the draw weight for the same draw length, but ten pounds is way off.... what is the brace height of this bow?

I wonder if the 58" string is 58" "a.m.o.", actually measuring 54" or so. But I figure that a guy with a tiller tree would know better.

 

The current Brace height with the 58" Fast flight flemish twist is 7.5". The recommend BH is between 7.5 and about 8.5.

correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of brace height, 28" from the riser handle area (for example) to the arrow nock, will put the bow under the same amount of strain regardless of the BH. Once the distance is 28", it should matter where it started from. Is that correct? I am asking not stating.

 

The Sage is a real nice bow for the price!

First off...do you actually know how to measure the draw length of a bow??? It's a VERY misunderstood part of archery. And IF you really know how to measure DL, and if is wrong, take it back to where you got it and get the proper limbs!

Sorry, I'm NOT trying to be insulting.

 

No offense, I have no clue. This is all a learning process (As evidenced by my initial thinking that BH didn't effect DW- But it's obvious to me now). So even the most basic Day 101 info will be appreciated and useful to me. I am just following what I have seen on Youtube. But if the BH effects the DW at 28" than it doesn't really matter what the limbs are labeled. If I want to get the specified 35# or 40# it not only has to be at the specified DL, but at a specific BH and String length. Which seems like a difficult combination of factors to match from the factory to the real world.

The bow specifies the recommended BH of between 7.5 and 8.5 or thereabout. So I will have various DW's depending on where my BH is. So to get the bow's DW to be exactly what the limbs specify, it has to have the exact BH it did when the limbs were originally measured??? Is that correct?
If that's the case. that could be what's throwing me off. And how do I know what the BH was when the limbs were measured?

I exchanged the 40# limbs that weighed in at 50# with a BH of 7.5". The lowest recommended BH.
I received the new 35# limbs yesterday and put them on and strung things up. My BH now, with the same string is only about 7", a little under spec (With the same strings, shouldn't it have been a higher BH?). Yet, the DW is coming in at 40#. Which is fine, that's what I originally wanted. I just have no clue how I am getting these apprx 10lb over readings.

I am using a simple/standard Tiller Tree with a notch at 28" and putting it on top of a bathroom style scale. Zeroing the scale when the tree and bow are on it, pulling the string down to the 28" notch, and right as I get to it, Boom, the scale reads 40 fricken pounds. I stacked some dumb Bells on the scale to check accuracy and it's dead on at every 10lbs up to 100lbs which is as far as I tested. So the scale is dead on, my weighing technique seems dead on. So I have no clue.
Shouldn't a lower BH give me a lower DW at the same distance and vice versa?

Or is it a simple fact that I am expecting these entry level limbs to be more accurate than the quality allows?

I have many more questions, but let's start there before it gets too overwhelming.

Thanks to everyone for the help.
I really appreciate it.

 

What is the location of the ILF Limb bolt? If it is all the way down that might explain the over weight condition.

 

No i.l.f. hardware on a Sage, straight bolt-down

 

So to simplify the question, when a Limb or Bow is specified to be, let's say 50lbs. that is typically at 28". But what I am learning is that is completely irrelevant if you don't know the brace height of the bow when it was measured at 28".

So I now have 35lb Limbs. But got only knows at what brace height. Maybe I am being too anal about this. Maybe it isn't that big of a deal. I don't know.

 

No.

BRACE height does NOT change the draw length rating of the limbs.

LOW brace
MEDIUM brace
HIGH brace

the draw weight
will will 50 lbs,
at a 28-inch AMO draw length
the "weight on the fingers"...regardless of what brace height you set the bow at.

So,
35 lb rated limbs
will deliver 35 lbs of "weight on the fingers"

regardless of whatever brace height you set.

You tune the brace height
for the arrows you are shooting,
to get the QUIETEST response
to get the best RESULTS.

So,
if YOUR recurve draw length is EXACTLY 28-inches,
YOU will feel 35 lbs of "WEIGHT on the fingers"...whether you set the brace height LOW, whether you set the brace height MEDIUM, whether you set the brace height HIGH.

You tune the brace height
to get the TIGHTEST groups,
to get the quietest sounding SHOT.

 

N&B - Thanks for taking the time to explain all this in detail. I really do appreciate it. I am sure a lot of the vets here get tired of answering the same newbie questions every time someone picks up a bow, when all the info is of course available elsewhere. But these days, forums are the first place people go for info. But it is really appreciated when someone still takes the time to help someone new like me and not just blow it off.

99% of what you said makes sense. I understand why the scale would read higher than the specified draw weight based on your description and what I am doing. So that's one cool bit of knowledge.

At first I thought the strings length (and by comparison) the Brace height would not effect the DW at 28". I assumed 28" was 28". But either in this post or another one some body said a longer string and lower brace height would result in a lower DW and Vice Versa. I thought about and the geometry of it and that seemed to make sense. Now I'm not sure based on your reply. It would seem to me that a longer string would get you at 28" with the limbs under less tension than a shorter string. In other words, with a long string, the distance from your nock groove to the end of the limbs would be shorter with a short string and longer with a long string.

The problem is probably that the terminology and all of this is new to me. So again, thanks for putting up with me.

Either way. My new 35# limbs feel awesome, I get what I feel is a tight grouping for a noob like me at 10-15 yards. I am not using a site or anything, just going by instinct (Shooting off the shelf, incorrectly with plastic vanes because that's all I have right now), and even with my raw technique and probably crappy arrows, I am at least having fun. To be able to at put 7 arrows onto my homemade 3' x 3' target at 30 yards feels good. Even if at that distance they aren't that tight yet. But at 10-15 yards, some of my arrows are scraping against each other. Which I assume is good, other than it could damage them.

 

Every recurve bow has a RANGE...minimum and maximum for brace height.

The Samick Sage is a 62-inch recurve bow.

So,
the Samick Sage would use a 62-inch AMO bowstring,
which means the bowstring is DESIGNED for use with a 62-inch recurve bow.

So,
is a 62-inch AMO bowstring...
does the 62-inch AMO bowstring actually measure out to 62-inches LONG, using a tape measure?

ANSWER = No.

A bowstring, designed for PROPER and APPROPRIATE USE for a 62-inch recurve bow
will MEASURE ROUGHLY 3.5-inches shorter

so,
a 62-inch recurve bow will use a bowstring that MEASURES with a TAPE MEASURE = 58.5-inches LONG....or thereabouts.

Say the bowstring has EACH twist measuring 1.5-inches long.

This way, you have room to TWIST the RECURVE bowstring a LITTLE BIT SHORTER
to increase your BRACE height a little bit LONGER.

This way, you have room to UN-TWIST the RECURVE bowstring a LITTLE BIT LONGER
to DE-CREASE your BRACE height a little bit SHORTER.


So,
if you put a 62-inch LONG RECURVE bowstring
on a 62-INCH RECURVE BOW...

then,
sure,
the draw weight will not come out to spec.

Use a 58.5-inch long RECURVE bowstring,
on a 62-inch Samick Sage...(ABOUT 3.5-inches SHORTER than the AMO length of the recurve bow)

PLAY with brace height,
when your bowstring is at 58.5-inches of LENGTH (stretched at 100 lbs of tension)

and then,
you can UNTWIST the RECURVE bowstring say 1 twist longer,
say 2 twists longer
say 3 twists longer
say 4 twists longer

or you can try 1 twist SHORTER
say 2 twists SHORTER
say 3 twists SHORTER
say 4 twists SHORTER

and fling some arrows.

Make the brace a little longer or a little shorter
until you get the BEST results.

Brace makes a difference.

If you are scraping arrows at 10-15 yards,
you are doing just FINE.

Your 35# limbs are 35# limbs...give or take several percentage points.

These are not $800 target limbs.

The Samick SAGE is a smooth, quality beginner wooden, three piece recurve bow.

 

BTW - I am of course not trying to conflict anything you are saying. I am sure you are correct. I am just trying to grasp a firm understanding of it so one I can be explaining it to others like myself.

 

Draw length is measured this way.



PIVOT point is the deepest part of the curve on the GRIP of your bow.


ALL recurve limbs are measured at 28-inches of AMO draw length.

This means,
you PULL on the bowstring,
to get a SEPARATION distance of 26.25-inches (using a tape measure)

a SEPARATION distance of 26.250-inches between the PIVOT POINT and the INSIDE face of the bowstring, CENTER SERVING.

ONLY when you pull the bowstring,
to get a SEPARATION DISTANCE of 26.25-inches

will you get your 35# limbs
to read 35 POUNDS of weight, on a SCALE.

 

Thanks again to everyone for the detailed descriptions and help. It is definitely not in vain and is making a difference.

 

This is where I start to get lost and give up. At least on the terminology and the science of it. Brace height seems so critical for both determining the DW at 28", the performance, etc, etc. Then I pull this exact quote off of 3R's Archery on Brace Height

"Note: You can measure your brace height from whatever point on the bow you wish, back to the string. Some folks measure from the middle of the sight window, some from the belly side of the arrow shelf, and some from the deepest portion of the grip. If you're discussing brace height with someone, make sure you're both on the same page. Regardless of where you measure from, brace height is a critical measurement for tuning your longbow or recurve. For measuring brace height, nothing beats a T-Square."

So when the MFG has a suggested Brace Height, where is that measured from? And how do I know?

So I am starting to think I just need to experiment with various arrows and brace heights and use what works best. I'm very technical person, coming from science and electronics and Music. And I expect there to be certain laws or constants. But that doesn't seem to apply with Archery. There is no A+B=C kind of formula when it comes to determining Brace height and the proper Arrow. Throw out all the numbers and just find what works, seems to be the best route.

 

Most manufacturers measure the brace height to the deepest part of the grip, as the illustrations above show. If there's doubt, ask the mfr. or read the instructions, if any.

Recurves have range of practical possible brace height. Higher or lower doesn't matter much, within a practical range. Changing the brace height will change the tune of the bow, so if your arrows are stiff you might twist the string some. For slightly weak arrows you could untwist the string or use a longer string. Its just one of many tuning parameters.

Wait till you get a bow with adjustable tiller...

 

Terms like "Most" and "Typically" are exactly what is throwing me off. I would have thought that by now, these terms and techniques would have been unified. Archery has been around for many 1000's of years. So by now I didn't expect there to be any confusion or ambiguity. I will just have to adjust my expectations accordingly and try to find what works based on all the available data.

Thanks again.