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Gentlefolk...it's only been in the past few years that I've ever owned anything ILF...my first being a 23" Hoyt Excel with SF Gold Foam Standard (glass/foam) limbs which I then swapped out for SF Elite (CF/Foam) limbs...I also owned a set of Samick (Glass/Wood) Universal limbs and a couple sets of TT Blackmaxs....more recently and currently?...I own 3 sets of medium length ILF Limbs....

1. 30# on a 21" Riser: Sky XGM's (Glass/Maple)

2. 35# on a 21" Riser: Sky TR7's (Double Carbon/Bamboo)

3. 28# on a 25" Riser: W&W Inno Ex Power (Nano Carbon/Foam)

My personal experience based opinions of all of the above are as follows....but first?...I would like to mention this...

All of the limbs mentioned above range in cost anywhere from about $130 too $700 a set and if velocity gains are your primary focal point and your main reason for dropping big bucks on the high enders?...I believe you will be left sorely disappointed as I feel safe in asserting that from the lowest priced too the highest priced you would be extremely fortunate to see a 5%-7% arrow velocity delta and even the most expensive are going to turn your recurve into a slow compound so?...why spend the gobs extra?....here's some reasons why...

1. "Greatly Increased Torsional Stability": as the same bow hand torque an archer may induce unto their bow's grip or slight plucking action at release where glass/wood limbs would yield to such inducing a slight twist into the glass/wood limbs and toss their flier of a shot barely scoring 2 points at 20yds?...the far more stable, torsional rigidity of CF reinforced limbs will markedly resist such torque thereby greatly reducing the amount of twist the archers slight errs in form and execution may have otherwise induced upon the glass/wood variety of limbs as as a result?...instead of that flier winging out a foot too the right?...is now solidly breaking into the 4-ring.

2. "Consistency": Which comes by way of reason #1 above and as a result?...allows one to more rapidly and easily achieve a higher level of tune...as the more defined the results?...the more "refined" the state of tune may become.

3. "Enhanced Thermal Stability": Whether ambient temps be 40 degrees or 100 degrees?...your high end CF/Foam limbs are still going to preform very near expectation...glass/wood?....not so much.

and last but absolutely not least?....

4. "A Higher Level of Confidence in Your Rig": (no explanation required)

So for me?..and due too the several sound reasons listed above?...I view "Faster Arrow Speeds" as more of an "Icing On The Cake" kind of deal and is NOT the main reason I prefer the many other virtues of the higher pedigree limbs...besides?...how many times have folks spent $150...then $250....and then upgraded too $400 limbs looking for that level of stability they know they want but by now?..$100 ago they could've had top tier limbs on their bow yet are still left with middle of the road sticks?...point made...I'll stop there.

At this point I feel compelled to address one other extremely important characteristic of limbs that characteristic being?...

"Draw Quality & Feel": and I don't even want to go here but I will only touch lightly on addressing it because it so soundly falls into the realm of "Personal Preference"?...and is so subjective on an individual basis?....it borders on ridiculous to even bring it up however these are my "Feelings" as follows in the form of...."Numerically Listed Statements"...

1. If an "Oiled Glass" level of draw quality was what I was looking for?...my buck would stop at high quality, low poundage glass over bamboo core R/D longbow limbs.

2. Glass/Wood Limbs seem to be more agreeable too bending and flexing by way of a higher level of acceptance towards tension and compression yielding a far smoother feeling draw cycle than does the seemingly more tension/compression resistant CF/Foam which results in the latter having a far crisper feeling draw.

and now?...I believe I've said enough and offer the following images for your personal observation and enjoyment.

WF19/TR7's at full draw...



Axiom 21" w/ W&W Ex Powers at full draw....



TR7 Lower Limb Profile at full draw



W&W Lower Limb Profile at full draw...



and again...



both limb profiles at static...



Comments welcome. L8R, Bill.
 

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I am shopping for ILF limbs for my TT Titan lll, are all brands limbs the same length in there respective size like short, med and long. I currently have TT BM wood/glass medium, and looking to upgrade but a bit confused. Not trying to hijack your thread but just trying to learn more about ILF bows. Thanks Roscoe
 

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Jinx,

Good summary. I can provide some insight from my quantitative assessments.

Speed differences can be fairly small when taken as a percent. Testing three similar limbs, from low end glass/wood, to higher end carbon/wood with cross weave carbon, I found the higher end limbs are faster, 190 fps to 183. As you lighten the limbs, the efficiency pickup will be larger. I have compared high end limbs in near identical bow configurations and found differences from 198 to 222 for some tests I did for an accomplished junior FITA archer. Draw weight differences account for some of the discrepancy, but I also found a significant variation in efficiency ranging from 66 to 77%. That is a big deal. So this means that even high end limbs can show significant differences in performance. If we stick strictly to conventional limb geometries you can tell a lot by looking at charts showing the first derivative of the draw force curve. Generally, the curves have the same shape, but differ in the details. Better limb, often, do not see as much stacking. The minimum pounds/inch point during draw can be lower. Testing torsional stability is trickier and I worry about damage to the limbs. We can assume that limbs with cross weave carbon have greater torsional stability, just like plywood over a piece of solid wood. There are certainly a lot of factors involved, and separating impression from fact is difficult since it is hard to assemble the right collection of limbs to do the testing. That is why we need to continue to test in hopes of building up a sufficient knowledge base to better understand the factors that affect bow performance.

Things change a lot when you change alter the geometry either by going to super recurves, or static recurves, hybrid longbow, D shaped longbow, or even horse bows and bows with siyahs.

I have posted all of the tests that I mentioned above, plus many others. Some are over on Tradtalk or Archery Interchange UK.
 

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The ILF market is driven by the need for shot consistency and accuracy at 70/90m, 10fps speed difference doesn't seem much but when shooting at 70m it's a huge difference.

For the short range Field/3D games we play those top of the range limbs don't really add enough of an advantage over a well constructed $400 limb to warrant spending another $200-$300 more and 3-4 years previous those $400 limbs were the top of the range limb technology. :set1_thinking:

Not all Carbon/Foam limbs are a tighter/crisper feel during the draw, Win & Win Innos are know for this but some other brands like Kaya are know to have silky smooth drawing Carbon/Foam limbs.
 

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For 90 meters, even 70, 10 fps means putting the arrow in the grass instead of on the target face. It means the difference between having a sight point on the target, or having to aim above the target. For shorter distances, you can get by with less speed. Limbs that give me good sight points definitely give me more points on the scoreboard when shooting FITA target.
 

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Comments welcome. L8R, Bill.

this photo here indicates that the bolt positions are not the same.

so the bend on the WF bow is greater.

this greater bend will effect the vertical stability.

so even the way a bow is assembled by way of setup will effect its shooting traits.

and looking at the picture. Id drop the BH by about 1/2" gain string wrap round the recurve, gain smoothness, gain stored energy, gain vertical stability...

if you look the tip is sitting more relaxed than the bow behind it.
dropping the BH will allow that tip to curl round, increasing the smoothness.

and this is all because the bolt positions are not equal.
so the BH doesnt need to be equal too.
 

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Ya lost me on 1. If a person induces that much torque to send an arrow into the two ring they sure as hell can't blame the limbs no matter how stable or unstable they are. That person needs lessons, not new limbs. That or a headbutt from a stabilizer for trying to pass that off as the reason for missing.
 

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Ya lost me on 1. If a person induces that much torque to send an arrow into the two ring they sure as hell can't blame the limbs no matter how stable or unstable they are. That person needs lessons, not new limbs. That or a headbutt from a stabilizer for trying to pass that off as the reason for missing.
the old addage that big recurves are unstable is true in that the forward pointing portion of the limb is being pushed forwards during the shot.
just like a caravan, you can pull it all day, but you cant push it without it wishing to jack knife.

if the limb lacks torsional stability to control the forward pointing portion of the limb then any variation in release will largely change the amount of jack knifing that the recurve limb takes.

with that in mind, if a limb has no left right strength, then any change in techneque from one shot to the next will change the amount of left right movement in the limb.

if the limb simply doesnt move left or right, then it will resist any user input, to the point where it the left right will be controlled more.
say 10% reduction in spread for example.

if you see what i mean...

the difference in recurve size that established big vs meduim was about 1/2" For example most recurves are 1.5" forward at BH. with a full understanding of torsional stability vs lever length and its desire to jack knife, you can make the forward pointing portion of the limb some 5" infront. normal used to me 1.5" Large used to be close to 2" and its now possible to be 5" infront.
this changes the 2lbs per inch = smooth, 3lbs per inch = stack, to a MEGA smooth 1lbs per inch. for a 50lbs bow, between 28-29"
 

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if you want better torsional stability try a set of long bow limbs. I like mine but, they are not high dollar limbs by an stretch.
 

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if you want better torsional stability try a set of long bow limbs. I like mine but, they are not high dollar limbs by an stretch.
there is a different need from Longbow limbs.... but what stops a skinny longbow limb from moving left or right?

it might self centre due to the limb following itself. (unlike a recurve) but it doesnt stop it from moving left or right though..
so i dont think its right to say that a Longbow limb doesnt require torsional stability.
ask a longbow maker why his limbs are not really skinny like howard hill bows.
and if he says they are difficult to tiller, it because the wollow left and right from small rubs to the sides of the limb.
meaning its arc back to brace height from full draw is also going to be longer than one that has less left and right movement.
 

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Didn't say you didn't need it partner just that it's better. Lol hell I don't know the first thing about bow design aside from the bare bones basics and even then.
 

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I am shopping for ILF limbs for my TT Titan lll, are all brands limbs the same length in there respective size like short, med and long. I currently have TT BM wood/glass medium, and looking to upgrade but a bit confused. Not trying to hijack your thread but just trying to learn more about ILF bows. Thanks Roscoe
This is my Titan 3 with Dryad Epic Limbs. Favorite and only Bow I shoot.

 

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Those are actually black max limbs I traded those out for the Dryad Epics. =-)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
At this point it may be interesting to take into consideration and inform that...

While the medium length TR7 limbs on the WF19 make for a 62" Bow braced at 7 3/4"?...the medium length Ex Powers on the SF AXIOM 21" riser make for a 64" bow which is braced at 7 1/2"s.

Also the riser pocket angles on the Axiom 21 are a couple degrees steeper than the WF19's very shallow 15 degree pocket angles.
 

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So - all that said, which limbs to you shoot the best scores with? How much better than the lesser limbs? How many rounds do you use for a base line average on each set of limbs? What standardized round do you shoot for the comparisons?
 

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the old addage that big recurves are unstable is true in that the forward pointing portion of the limb is being pushed forwards during the shot.
just like a caravan, you can pull it all day, but you cant push it without it wishing to jack knife.

if the limb lacks torsional stability to control the forward pointing portion of the limb then any variation in release will largely change the amount of jack knifing that the recurve limb takes.

with that in mind, if a limb has no left right strength, then any change in techneque from one shot to the next will change the amount of left right movement in the limb.

if the limb simply doesnt move left or right, then it will resist any user input, to the point where it the left right will be controlled more.
say 10% reduction in spread for example.

if you see what i mean...

the difference in recurve size that established big vs meduim was about 1/2" For example most recurves are 1.5" forward at BH. with a full understanding of torsional stability vs lever length and its desire to jack knife, you can make the forward pointing portion of the limb some 5" infront. normal used to me 1.5" Large used to be close to 2" and its now possible to be 5" infront.
this changes the 2lbs per inch = smooth, 3lbs per inch = stack, to a MEGA smooth 1lbs per inch. for a 50lbs bow, between 28-29"
I find myself asking the question where is enough, enough? Is there a point of beyond optimum - overkill? With standard hooks, it appears that good old glass and wood seem to provide at least a reasonable level of torsional stability, smooth draw and accurate shooting. You can add all kinds of carbon weaves but does it really provide anything useful? As the hooks reach 'radical' then the carbon weaves are necessary to keep the limb from jack knifing. Just wondering were that tip over point is. Guessing about 1 1/2" or the standard hook length. For me any limb change has to show it is an improvement in accuracy over what I'm currently using or I pass. That is assessed by shooting 1/2 dz or so 300 rounds in a controlled environment. If it proves out there, then I'll go outside and see if they are better or not than my current limb.
 

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that information from Borderbows is worth cut/paste and print.Great info and explanation from someone always searching for better.
 

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the old addage that big recurves are unstable is true in that the forward pointing portion of the limb is being pushed forwards during the shot.
just like a caravan, you can pull it all day, but you cant push it without it wishing to jack knife.

if the limb lacks torsional stability to control the forward pointing portion of the limb then any variation in release will largely change the amount of jack knifing that the recurve limb takes.

with that in mind, if a limb has no left right strength, then any change in techneque from one shot to the next will change the amount of left right movement in the limb.

if the limb simply doesnt move left or right, then it will resist any user input, to the point where it the left right will be controlled more.
say 10% reduction in spread for example.

if you see what i mean...

the difference in recurve size that established big vs meduim was about 1/2" For example most recurves are 1.5" forward at BH. with a full understanding of torsional stability vs lever length and its desire to jack knife, you can make the forward pointing portion of the limb some 5" infront. normal used to me 1.5" Large used to be close to 2" and its now possible to be 5" infront.
this changes the 2lbs per inch = smooth, 3lbs per inch = stack, to a MEGA smooth 1lbs per inch. for a 50lbs bow, between 28-29"

I get the theory on torsional stability but are there any limbs out there so poorly made that they fold like wet noodles on release? Generally speaking the weak link in any bow is the user.

The smoothness of your Hex limbs is quite impressive. I got to try it once and was surprised at the compound like let off in the last couple inches. Question is though, is that something the shooter eventually gets used to? For example, and I'm sure a lot of people have experienced this. You usually shoot a 40lb bow and then one day you shoot your 50. After about an hour of that you pick up the 40 and holy crap, if it doesn't feel like your holding next to nothing making the amount of focus able to be devoted to aiming that much more. The benefit is fleeting though and after about a dozen or so shots you're pretty much back to where you were. The muscles adapt and do what's needed for the job at hand.
 

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I get the theory on torsional stability but are there any limbs out there so poorly made that they fold like wet noodles on release? Generally speaking the weak link in any bow is the user.

The smoothness of your Hex limbs is quite impressive. I got to try it once and was surprised at the compound like let off in the last couple inches. Question is though, is that something the shooter eventually gets used to? For example, and I'm sure a lot of people have experienced this. You usually shoot a 40lb bow and then one day you shoot your 50. After about an hour of that you pick up the 40 and holy crap, if it doesn't feel like your holding next to nothing making the amount of focus able to be devoted to aiming that much more. The benefit is fleeting though and after about a dozen or so shots you're pretty much back to where you were. The muscles adapt and do what's needed for the job at hand.
I think you may get used to the feel - but the performance gain will always be there. Now if the performance gain comes at the expense of accuracy, then that trade off has to be analyzed by the shooter. Border may have found the best of both worlds with their heavy hooks and carbon weaves. Time will tell.
 
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