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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
During a discussion about tillering about a week ago (let's not go there again) Field14 brought up the subject of the loop shape (pointing up/down) during and after the shot. Tom, I was going to send you a PM on the subject but decided to open post this on the forum. It was said that if the loop is not at the "center of pull" of the string it will point up or down depending on where it is postioned. Before I dash out and pull all the loops and center servings off my bows I'd like to know a bit more. All of my bows are Hoyts with the cam 1/2 + system, they are set up with a blade rest with the arrow running through the upper section of the Berger hole and the nock 1/8" high. The loop points up a little after a shot as I would expect. Firstly how do you find this "center of pull" and what effect does it have. I could only drop my loop 1/4" or so before I'm down on the shelf, as the loop is several inches offset from the middle of the string would this small amount have any real effect.

LET THE KICKING, SCRATCHING AND GOUGING BEGIN. ON YOUR MARKS-SET-GO.
 

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If the loop looks like " 7 " move it up the string
If the loop looks like " \ " move it down the string
If the loop looks like " > " you're good to go

If you held the riser in the center, then the loop would be center of string....but we don't. Most of time it's very close to 90deg of berger hole (built in this way) but needs tweeking for the individual.
 

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With your loop bending up aftr the shot wouldn't you need to raise the nocking point to get a straight loop?
 

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If the loop looks like " 7 " move it up the string
If the loop looks like " \ " move it down the string
If the loop looks like " > " you're good to go

If you held the riser in the center, then the loop would be center of string....but we don't. Most of time it's very close to 90deg of berger hole (built in this way) but needs tweeking for the individual.
This is what people 'Think'...but not quite the case....

If the loop looks like "7"....move it DOWN the string.

If the loop looks like and inverted seven..that is, pointed down after the shot...move it UP the string.

I know it appears it should be the other way....but...it is like the confusion over the changes in poundage and its effect on drawlength...just the OPPOSITE of what you expect.

I got this information from JAVI, who is pretty darned reliable. Up until that time, I was pretty frustrated by my loop being deformed and couldn't correct said deformation by moving the loop UP....it always stayed like : "7".

I start with ALL my bows by running a horizontal line thru the center of the two arrow rest mounting holes and marking it on the riser (or I use markable cello tape and the write that horizontal line on that).

Then, I put my bow square on the string and align it with that horizontal line that is thru the center of the bolt holes.

Next, I place a small piece of masking tape on the bowstring and mark that even with the bottom edge of the bow-square that is running on that horizontal line.

Then, I place an arrow nock onto the line that is on the masking tape. I use the "mold line" of that nock and line it up with the marked line. This is the CENTER POINT across those two bolt holes...center of nock = center of arrow; how 'bout that?

I'm now ready to place my top d-loop knot right onto the top of the nock. If you prefer to "tie in", then tie away...making sure that the top tie in or top d-loop knot is against the arrow nock. I tighten up that knot by pulling on the loose end of the d-loop and make sure the nock is still centered on the line.

Remove the masking tape from the string.

Tie in the lower d-loop knot, or serve in below the arrow nock while leaving a small gap (1 mm. or so) space below the bottom of the nock. If you tie in with serving thread, then you now tie in the bottom d-loop knot.

Cinch down the entire d-loop and tighten until you get the length of loop you normally use...You DID write the length of that d-loop opening down, didn't you? THIS DOES AFFECT YOUR ANCHOR POINT...NOT your DL...just your relationship of the hand to the bowstring distance...and as a result, your ANCHOR POINT.

Now...since you have already set the d-loop to the center of the berger hole...you are most likely NOT going to have "deformation" at all...but you need to check it anyways.

Mount your arrow rest and adjust the ARROW REST until your arrow is centered on the berger hole. I have another technique I use for this (the "short arrow" technique) that works to perfection...but that is later...you can "eyeball" it to center your arrow over the Arrow Rest Mounting Hole.
DO NOT MOVE THAT D-LOOP ON THE BOWSTRING...I repeat...>DO NOT MOVE THAT D-LOOP ON THE BOWSTRING.

From this time forward any adjustments are made to the ARROW REST!! I repeat...you move the ARROW REST and NEVER the D-loop.

Now you are ready to "test" your pulling point, which should be OK anyways.

Remove the stabilizer from the bow. Get up close, draw, anchor, aim, and shoot several shots...paying attention only to how the loop looks after the shot. If like a "7" then move the loop DOWN slightly. If the loop points downward (unlikely event, by the way), then move it UP slightly.

Now, the last test is a "let down"...Draw the bow, anchor, hold, and then let down. Without disturbing the loop, look to see if it is deformed or not. If deformed, follow same as above....d-loop deformed upwards, move it DOWN slightly on the string.

It is only a simple check...and once again....with the above method of placing the d-loop on the string...you most likely aren't going to have deformation of the d-loop. Most commonly, if you do...it will be deformed upwards, and you'll have to move the loop DOWN the string slightly.

My Merlin Excalibur has perfect nock travel...Thus, my bow's d-loop was set up as per above, and then the arrow rest was set so that my "short-arrow's" tip was also aligned with the horizontal line I made that passes thru the center of the arrow rest holes. (Now you know why I extended the horizontal line, haha). DEAD LEVEL NOCKING POINT for DEAD LEVEL nock travel.

If you like to have your arrow at the top of the mounting holes, then fine...make your horizontal line across the top of the holes...and follow the above procedure to place the loop.

Now...if you "insist" that you think your nocking point needs to be 1/8" high...then MOVE THE REST DOWN so that you get what you think you want...and tune from there.

With my Merlin Excalibur.....I was done tuning once I got the tip of my "short arrow" matched up with that horizontal line and made sure it is marked on my arrow shelf "template".

The second Merlin Excalibur (Left handed ) that I set up the other day is a mirror image of the first....and....I used the d-loop placement procedure above, and my template from the other Excalibur (in reverse), and set my arrow rest up. I was done in two minutes. Went to shoot the new LH Excalibur and had perfect arrow flight.

I had measure my scope height and windage and matched that up too. My first arrow out the LH Excalibur was a "tweener" at 12 o'clock...just out of the X-ring at 20 yards.

I also can duplicate and replicate the bow's d-loop and arrow rest setup in minutes when something moves.

One last thing...IMPORTANT, IMHO, if you don't tie in some floss or serving material ABOVE that TOP KNOT...you are waiting for your d-loop to move on you!!

field14 (Tom D.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tom, what you are saying in a nutshell is that the centre of the loop and nocking point should be in line with the centre line of the Berger holes. What happens if it isn't. What is the result of a loop looking like a 7 ?? and how does it affect the shot. Are bows designed this way so that the Berger holes are a reference point for setting nocking points or are they just drilled at some convenient place ??.
 

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Tom, what you are saying in a nutshell is that the centre of the loop and nocking point should be in line with the centre line of the Berger holes. What happens if it isn't. What is the result of a loop looking like a 7 ?? and how does it affect the shot. Are bows designed this way so that the Berger holes are a reference point for setting nocking points or are they just drilled at some convenient place ??.
With the 4 brands of bows I tested this on....ALL of them gave me an undeformed d-loop when I used the described method! The only time problems seemed to develop was when that d-loop was used to set the nocking point and then the person moved that d-loop, or the d-loop wasn't tight enough and moved on its own...or the serving wasn't tight enough and slipped on the string. The direction of movement both by the shooter (which they should not be doing) or by the string is...almost always UP on the bowstring...and then, guess what?

You got it...a deformed d-loop that looks like a "7"...We release shooters put a ton of UP pressure on that loop...that is why so many, especially those that set their arrows at the top of the mounting holes...are serving UNDER the nock for about 1/8" or more...to get the pulling point back in line.

You do whatcha got to do, but the one thing to remember is simple...once you don't get a deformed d-loop anymore...NEVER move that d-loop when you think you need a "nocking point" adjustment....MOVE THE ARROW REST.

If you move the d-loop, you will get it out of phase again...and it will start deforming all over again!

D-LOOP DOES NOT GET MOVED.

Oh, something to add here....IF you aren't serving under the nock with serving thread and simply putting your bottom knot under the nock.....IF that bottom knot cinches up against the arrow nock....you haven't gotten the loop tight enough!

That is why I tried to stress that you gotta know how long the gap between the outside of the string and the inside of the loop is. I measure mine with a micrometer! Then, I make my starting loop length shorter than expected...and use my loop pliers to stretch it to the right FINISHED length. This "number" is recorded...and then is easily duplicated when I change d-loops.
Tying above that top knot, IMHO is IMPORTANT for two reasons:

1. That d=loop CAN move up the string with time due to the up pressure. I ALWAYS tied in floss or serving above ALL of my nocking points long before I used a d-loop. Even when I shot fingers and recurve.

2. By having that tied in serving ABOVE the top knot....I have a positive locator for the top knot...which to me is the CRITICAL knot. Replacement is then much simpler WHEN that worn d-loop has to be replaced.

Always make up in advance spare lengths of loop material with the ends burned off. It pays to remove that first tied in loop that is the correct stretched length...and duplicate that as your starting length. Sure, you are going to struggle at first with getting that second knot tied and initially stretched to get the pliers in...but, it pays off huge dividends later.

PROACTIVE ARCHERY at work again....

field14 (Tom D.)

field14 (Tom D.)
 

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Fantastic info. Thanks Field!
And thanks Niceguy for the topic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I place a short length of serving above and below the nocking point and place the loop outside of the serving. I make the lower serving about 1/8" longer than the top, the only reason I do this is because I read that this was the way to get the release directly behind the arrow (which it is). Is it better to move the loop down and make both nock servings the same length ??. Still looking for causes and effects here!!, what actually happens to the shot if the loop is pointing up is it actually a bad thing thing. No point in moving things just to make things look good if there's no improvement in the shot.
 

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Still looking for causes and effects here!!, what actually happens to the shot if the loop is pointing up is it actually a bad thing thing. No point in moving things just to make things look good if there's no improvement in the shot.
I would think that it would be better if everything was in-line but I have no real world experience on this.
 

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Still looking for causes and effects here!!, what actually happens to the shot if the loop is pointing up is it actually a bad thing thing. No point in moving things just to make things look good if there's no improvement in the shot.

It improves how well you can hold on target. Once you know you're pulling evenly on the string, you can also fine tune the loading by tweeking a limb bolt.

Thanks for calling out where I was wrong on movement direction....I see where I misspoke when thinking it thru initially :embara:
 

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I place a short length of serving above and below the nocking point and place the loop outside of the serving. I make the lower serving about 1/8" longer than the top, the only reason I do this is because I read that this was the way to get the release directly behind the arrow (which it is). Is it better to move the loop down and make both nock servings the same length ??. Still looking for causes and effects here!!, what actually happens to the shot if the loop is pointing up is it actually a bad thing thing. No point in moving things just to make things look good if there's no improvement in the shot.
It DOES affect the shot...due to the change in the Holdability. If that loop is deformed, then you are pulling off center...most time from above center...and that will tend to have the bow wanting to drop out the bottom as you are aiming....

Makes sense to establish a pulling point that gives you the most solid hold...and if it is higher than "dead center" across the rest mounting holes, so be it...but once that is set...you NEVER move that d-loop...always the arrow rest.

With ALL of my Merlins, and Hoyts, PSE's and Mathews and Martins I've worked on and shot....I've set this up the way I described and never had a deformed loop. It is when I started piddling with moving the loop instead of the arrow rest that the problems cropped up. Thanks to JAVI I found out why...and then came up with a pretty much foolproof method to make a template and to get duplication of a good setup with a minimum amount of effort.

It is sort of like the wing-span method for drawlength...DEAD CENTER PULL is a good starting point...and MINUTE adjustments can be made from there to deal with how YOU hold the bow in your hand. These movements of the loop are NOT in large increments, however...often times 1/8" is too much!

field14 (Tom D.)
 

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How would this work if you tie loop under nock?
Then the loop will be "centered" but the nock won't. I've not experimented with this type of setup...but again, once that loop is set...you don't move the LOOP...you move the arrow rest to fine tune.

If I was to try what you suggest....I'd probably "center up" the loop, place the arrow above it, which would put the arrow at the top of the mounting hole and tune dead flat from there and move the rest down if need be to get the grouping.

It would all depend upon how the bow HOLDS, and if that loop is deformed or not.

On this loop below the arrow thing, I'm simply surmising what I would do if I were to try it this way...and go from there.

field14 (Tom D.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It DOES affect the shot...due to the change in the Holdability. If that loop is deformed, then you are pulling off center...most time from above center...and that will tend to have the bow wanting to drop out the bottom as you are aiming....

Makes sense to establish a pulling point that gives you the most solid hold...and if it is higher than "dead center" across the rest mounting holes, so be it...but once that is set...you NEVER move that d-loop...always the arrow rest.

With ALL of my Merlins, and Hoyts, PSE's and Mathews and Martins I've worked on and shot....I've set this up the way I described and never had a deformed loop. It is when I started piddling with moving the loop instead of the arrow rest that the problems cropped up. Thanks to JAVI I found out why...and then came up with a pretty much foolproof method to make a template and to get duplication of a good setup with a minimum amount of effort.

It is sort of like the wing-span method for drawlength...DEAD CENTER PULL is a good starting point...and MINUTE adjustments can be made from there to deal with how YOU hold the bow in your hand. These movements of the loop are NOT in large increments, however...often times 1/8" is too much!

field14 (Tom D.)
Thanks Tom, I'll do some experimenting.
 

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What should I do? I have a drop away rest that I have to set so that the bottom of the arrow is at the top of the berger hole. If I set the drop away lower it will hit the shelf of the bow. With this set up I broadhead tune by moving the loop. Now I have the bow broadhead tuned and the loop 7 is going on. I did put about 1/8" of serving below the arrow nock to get the pressure a little more behind the arrow.

I always thought the 7 thing was going on because I was supporting part of the weight of the bow with my release. Live and learn.
 

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great post guys. thanks for the info. i learn something today :).


Bill
 

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field14 awesome info...i will definately be making some short arrows for this stage of setting up bows...

I have 6 bows of mine and my friends that are in need of string changes and this will make me more efficient and more accurate with my set up for them...
 

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field14 awesome info...i will definately be making some short arrows for this stage of setting up bows...

I have 6 bows of mine and my friends that are in need of string changes and this will make me more efficient and more accurate with my set up for them...
I've done countless string, cable, and loop changes on bows with the procedure I've outlined in Archery Focus magazine. You eat an elephant one bite at a time...so it is with changing out strings, cables, and the d-loop...and even the arrow rest on a bow...ONE BITE AT A TIME.

I can confidently say that I can take a compound bow, and using the "procedure" change the cables and string, put on a new loop, install the peep...and the first arrow out of the bow will go into at least the Bullseye...and most likely even the X-ring at 20 yards.

IF YOU ARE CAREFUL and IF you TAKE YOUR TIME doing it.

Everytime you move that loop...is wasted time...especially if you started with an UNDEFORMED loop to begin with...by moving the LOOP...you have changed the pulling point on the bowstring from what it was before. Most of the time people are moving it UP to get a "higher nocking point" and that is why most of the time, the d-loop is deformed upwards.. like the "7"....dah.

I don't recall seeing more than a handful of d-loops deformed " _/"....rare indeed.

About the broadhead being inside the riser...PERSONALLY...I would NEVER EVER have a broadhead inside the side window or arrow shelf and be behind my bowhand...that is a CUTOFF FINGER waiting to happen, IMHO>

Today's bows are designed very low wristed with minimal arrow shelves to help get vane clearance. This is due to trying to get as close to "center pull' and as straight of nock travel as possible. As a result, the first finger area of the bowhand tends to rise up and into the site window above the "arrow shelf" (or what is left of it). If you look closely at many of the top guns that don't shoot the "shoot thru" risers...you will see that side of their bowhand is into that site window.....

So....imagine your broadhead behind your hand...you hold a bit long...and the finger comes up into the site window......THINGS COULD GET UGLY and BLODDY in a hurry.

I don't think the "Old Timers" were exactly stupid when they always suggested to have AT LEAST...1" of arrow IN FRONT of your bowhand when shooting broadheads out of a bow. They also said to NEVER have that broadhead behind your bowhand when at full draw....TO ME...that still holds true.

The added "speed" ain't worth the risk of a severly cut or cut off finger or a slice on the bowhand out in the middle of nowhere where stitches cannot be gotten immediately..

THINK ABOUT IT....

field14 (Tom D.)
 

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About the broadhead being inside the riser...PERSONALLY...I would NEVER EVER have a broadhead inside the side window or arrow shelf and be behind my bowhand...that is a CUTOFF FINGER waiting to happen, IMHO>

Today's bows are designed very low wristed with minimal arrow shelves to help get vane clearance. This is due to trying to get as close to "center pull' and as straight of nock travel as possible. As a result, the first finger area of the bowhand tends to rise up and into the site window above the "arrow shelf" (or what is left of it). If you look closely at many of the top guns that don't shoot the "shoot thru" risers...you will see that side of their bowhand is into that site window.....

So....imagine your broadhead behind your hand...you hold a bit long...and the finger comes up into the site window......THINGS COULD GET UGLY and BLODDY in a hurry.

I don't think the "Old Timers" were exactly stupid when they always suggested to have AT LEAST...1" of arrow IN FRONT of your bowhand when shooting broadheads out of a bow. They also said to NEVER have that broadhead behind your bowhand when at full draw....TO ME...that still holds true.

The added "speed" ain't worth the risk of a severly cut or cut off finger or a slice on the bowhand out in the middle of nowhere where stitches cannot be gotten immediately..

THINK ABOUT IT....

field14 (Tom D.)
Since I am the only one who mentioned broadheads, I am assuming the above post about broadheads is directed toward me.

I am thinking that I can't adjust my loop for center pull because I have to have my rest up above the berger hole so that my rest does not drop onto the shelf. After I broadhead tuned (getting field tips and broadheads to hit the same point) the loop is doing the 7 shape.

My question is what can I do besides get a different type rest?
 
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