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Discussion Starter #1
I am new to Traditional Archery. I have been reading mostly and watching videos on various techniques and advice. It led me to the Samick Sage 30# as my first Bow to work on form. I look forward to my first range lesson. I am going to get some arrows that work with my 30# Sage. I have a 28.5" draw as measured with the Easton Arrow Gage but I am not consistent with that yet as i am trying to get a feel for my anchor point. I have worked a bit with the online spine calculator on 3Rivers website and found several arrows that may work for that bow. Does anyone have experience with the Carbon Express Predator II 800? 30" shafts with Amped-XS nocks [9g] Half Out inserts [46g] field point [75g] 3x5 feathers for fletching, this seems to get the arrow spine close to the sage. I also looked at the Easton 1816 Aluminum, 1814 X7, Carbon One 810, Red line 780, they all appear to spine well for the sage but some seem expensive for starter arrows. The CE P II 800 were reasonably priced...

Samick Sage 30#
Draw Length = 28.5"
D97 FF 14 Strand

Shooting The Stickbow - Camera

Become The Arrow - Furguson

Ultimate Guide To Traditional Archery - Sapp
 

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easton has a couple of 'new' offerings that may suit you well in a good variety of spine

apollo - I'd like to try these and compare to the carbon one

tribute - if you want to catch some fire ;)
 

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Lamarr -

If you can use a 29" arrow go with 1716s.
Since most "charts" are pretty far off draw length wise, using a full length (30.5") 1816s might be a safer bet. (Yes, they may be slightly stiff but certainly usable.)
You can use the less expensive Jazz or Blues versions.
Carbon Ones are entry level OUTDOOR arrows for shooting at extended distances.
They should not be even considered for indoor shooting.

Viper1 out.
 

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Of the arrows you list, I've shot the redlines...great arrows- not too expensive, great tolerences, light weight...the only downside is that they're a discontinued arrow--though I believe that Beman is now using that arrow under a different name.

Another choice is the Easton Platinum--(aluminum arrow)

for sizes...listen to Viper
 

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Carbon express predator II in the 800 should work well for you I shoot them out a 30# carsage same bow different riser an have a 27.5 draw lenght. Excellent arrow super tough you can try the half out insert 40 grs an some saunder combo point in the 17/64 dia they also fit the shaft perfect if you want to glue them in with out the half out insert also there only 5.50 a dozen try some 75 100 125 grs. I really highly recommend the predators they really tough for a skinny shaft lancaster have them Good luck an enjoy your new bow. custom string really helps the sage. leave the arrow full lenght. if you have any question feel free to ask.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the advice guys, I really appreciate it. As far as fletching goes I am shooting off a calf hair rest and side plate so I have read that feathers would be a better choice than vanes. 3x4 or 3x5? or shouldn't matter much for my setup and current Greenness... I will take a look at the 1716 as well Viper and scratch the Carbon One off the list. I have not looked at Beman yet but I will see if they have anything spined for my sage.
 

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Definitely feathers. If you plan to shoot targets only, 4" will be fine. If you plan to hunt, I prefer the added insurance of 5", or 4 x 4".

Never heard of an "outdoor only" shaft.

I've shot CX Predator II's, but not that light in spine. They were ok.
 

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Lamarr -


Carbon Ones are entry level OUTDOOR arrows for shooting at extended distances.
They should not be even considered for indoor shooting.

Viper1 out.
In my "opinion" this statement makes no sense. Especially coming from one who not long ago held that people should shoot Indoor with the same equipment that they used for everything else. Otherwise changing to a different arrow for shooting Indoor is "cheating."
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Northern Boy

Do you recall what thread size is in the CE Half Out Inserts?
 

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Lamarr -

If you can use a 29" arrow go with 1716s.
Since most "charts" are pretty far off draw length wise, using a full length (30.5") 1816s might be a safer bet. (Yes, they may be slightly stiff but certainly usable.)
You can use the less expensive Jazz or Blues versions.
Carbon Ones are entry level OUTDOOR arrows for shooting at extended distances.
They should not be even considered for indoor shooting.

Viper1 out.

This got my attention. Why not use carbon arrows indoors? is there an issue with distance between aluminium and carbon outside the weight factor and trajectory? For aluminium I've only used the easton plat plus and shot mostly outdoor between 20 and 40 yards with a sage and 25#/35# limbs while getting my form and so forth learned. Used those when the 600 spine arrows weren't cooperating. With carbons I've used the carbon express, victory, and gold tip with either the dorado or buffalo at 45# & 50#. I wouldn't dare use the aluminium for hunting for fear of bending them all to hell if it hit the dirt. My first trad kill, a couple weeks back, was with a carbon express pred 2 on a ram. Did the job in one shot at 30 yards and I still have the arrow to use again. Granted, the straightness tolerance is initially better with the aluminium on the order of 4 thousands of an inch but at 40 yards or less I wouldn't think it be realized by anyone but champion shooters. Am I missing something?
 

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The thread size for the half out insert is the standard size all field points fit. but for the small dia of the 800 an 700 spine arrows you will need field points with a 17/64 out side dia for easy arrow pull outs. carbon are much better for outdoor shooting an are a great value.
 

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rancho -

Careful, I didn't say "carbon" arrows, I said "Carbon One" arrows.

The Easton Carbon Ones are fairly thin shafts designed for outdoor shooting at extended ranges.
If you can afford ACEs or similar composite arrows, they work quite well.
Given their small diameter, they "may" be a little trickier to set up than and more standard size aluminum or carbon arrow.

Regarding carbon arrows and indoor shooting in general.
Personally, I don't like them. And straightness of an arrow is the low man on the totem pole in regards to accuracy and precision (within reason of course). A new shooter may be hitting things other than the target, and while aluminum may bend (and can be straightened), but carbon, especially the less expensive ones can shatter. For more experienced shooters, using a single spot target at close range (20 yds), most carbons don't take to side slaps and even direct nock impacts as well as aluminum. I go through about 100 nocks year, and except for rare robinhoods, rarely have to replace a shaft. (And ICS type carbon robinhood A LOT easier than aluminum arrows with inserts.)

Sorry, rancho, aluminum arrows have been used for hunting, probably since before you were born and landing in the dirt ain't gonna bend one. Bouncing off a rock, maybe, but a carbon won't like that either.

Viper1 out.
 

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Carbon is generally straight, or broken.

Aluminum can be straightened, but it requires a special (and expensive) tool and a lot of practice, and even then it depends on the type aluminum. The higher quality arrows, like XX78's and X-7's are a stronger, but more brittle alloy that doesn't take to straightening as well. Cheaper aluminum is softer and easier to straighten...and easier to bend on a bad shot. Can't take creases and dings out of either.

Durability with either one depends on several variables. Generally speaking, the more expensve carbons are more durable. You can also buy or make collars for carbons that can extend their life if you are prone to "robin hoods" (nock collar) or if you are prone to missing the target alltogether (point end collar).

More expensive aluminum will be more durable (usually) in the same size, but wall thickness is also a big factor. I don't like the new way aluminum gets labeled, because it doesn't give you the wall thickness--that's a huge factor in how durable the shaft will be.

Get right down to it, a hit that will destroy a carbon will generally destroy a comparable aluminum, and vice-versa. Either one can be lost, neither one is indestructable.

IMO, shoot what you like. I have carbon, aluminum, and wood shafts, and shoot them all. Couldn't say which I've destroyed more of.
 

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I shoot Tribute's and Predator II's. I've bent more aluminum than I've broken carbon, though I like the extra weight of the aluminum for hunting.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for the feedback guys. I will probably try the CE Pred II 800
Spine to start. Until I figure out how to shoot straight. The pricing looks
Right at about $114 delivered w fletching, nocks, inserts. Going to start
W combo points at 75g and 85g. Down the road I will try some aluminum
Shafts when I start building my own arrows. Most deals on finished 1816
Are w Vanes that I found. Probably more availability on stiffer spines
When I go up on limb # after form is consistent . Wish me luck but not
Too much that I RH my new carbons by complete accident !
 

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rancho -

Careful, I didn't say "carbon" arrows, I said "Carbon One" arrows.

The Easton Carbon Ones are fairly thin shafts designed for outdoor shooting at extended ranges.
If you can afford ACEs or similar composite arrows, they work quite well.
Given their small diameter, they "may" be a little trickier to set up than and more standard size aluminum or carbon arrow.

Regarding carbon arrows and indoor shooting in general.
Personally, I don't like them. And straightness of an arrow is the low man on the totem pole in regards to accuracy and precision (within reason of course). A new shooter may be hitting things other than the target, and while aluminum may bend (and can be straightened), but carbon, especially the less expensive ones can shatter. For more experienced shooters, using a single spot target at close range (20 yds), most carbons don't take to side slaps and even direct nock impacts as well as aluminum. I go through about 100 nocks year, and except for rare robinhoods, rarely have to replace a shaft. (And ICS type carbon robinhood A LOT easier than aluminum arrows with inserts.)

Sorry, rancho, aluminum arrows have been used for hunting, probably since before you were born and landing in the dirt ain't gonna bend one. Bouncing off a rock, maybe, but a carbon won't like that either.

Viper1 out.

Gotcha. I can see how aluminum might have a better survival depending on what it hits and how. So far, I've broken a few carbons from direct impact into cement walls within the first few weeks of shooting. They end up mushrooming with the tip buried deep in the shaft. Aluminum wouldn't have survived either. I'm guessing they would have ended up creasing making it impossible to repair. I've got one of those straighteners for the couple dozen shafts I have. They seem to slowly bend after a while and need straightened after about 50 or so uses even if all the shots go where intended, more or less. Tried hunting with them once. Out here the soil is loose and the arrows usually have a good chance at hitting an embedded rock, especially in our deserts. Carbons seem to tolerate our sandy dirt better.
 

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rancho -

I have an aluminum and steel arrow straightener with a dial micrometer I got from eBay for about $60.
I've straightened a number or arrows with it over the years, and not one has retaken a bend.
I have xx75 and x7 shafts that are over 5 years old and regularly used, and none have taken a bend on their own.
Remarkable since I do tend to slap a lot of arrows in the target.
Before I got the straightener, I used my hands and a straight surface for a rolling reference. Tedious, but certainly do-able.
Naturally some bends are harder to correct than others, like bends at either end or compound bends.
Yes, any arrow with a ding or crease is toast.

There's no right or wrong here, and we each use what's worked best for us.
I've just found that for new shooters, it's easier to pick a tune-able aluminum arrow than with most carbons, but then again, most of my new shooters start off indoors.

Viper1 out.
 

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+1 on the 1816s.
My son has a 30# Sage and gets great results from the 1816 Jazz. They are inexpensive as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I have been shooting the Carbon Express Predator II 800 for a few days and working on my form. I hope to get to the range and get some lessons or at least someone watching my shooting. I realize that tuning at this point is futile as I am not consistent in Draw or Release. I am glad I went with a 30# bow since I can shoot many arrows without fatigue. I also got some Full length Easton Platinum Plus 1816 shafts as well and will Fletch those next after I am at the tuning point. One question I do have is when I become comfortable with the 30# limbs, what is a logical progression in limb weight moving forward if I want to shoot a "heavier" bow?
 
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