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2nd Amend. Don't lose it
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Hello Folks,

I am new to traditional and primitive archery. I used to shoot recurves
when I was in Boy scouts, and wanted to get back into it.

I jaunted about and ended up at my local archery shop (Walmart). These guys were smart and good!... They fitted me with a 32 inch bow at 70#. It was hard for me to pull back at first, but after a while, I got used to it. I can now shoot it through two NFAA rounds before I feel rubbery in the arms.

I wanted a bow I can shoot deer with. I have hunted now for 5 years very
successfully. I have shot over 50 deer in the last 5 years, all at a distance
of 5 yards or less. But I want something more challenging, like Traditional
Archery.

I decided on Traditional Archery, because you can me "One with the bow".
You have no cams, rests, or sights. You can shoot off your knuckle, use
wooden arrows, and throw yourself back in the mid-evil way of life. (Oh the
thought of hunting with such primitive stuff).

So here I am, I went to Cabellas and Bass pro for the expert advice. They
set me up in this range that was 20 feet, and handed me traditional bow after traditional bow. I told them I wanted to HUNT, and need a bow that was heavy enough to kill a deer. They had many such bows, and were nice enough to allow me to shoot them at their 20 foot range.

I drew back and presto! I actually came very close to what I was hitting!
Amazing! I threw some more arrows down there, and PRESTO! I am actually
grouping at 20 feet! I ask how many pounds the bow is, and the answer is 55#, enough to take out a deer.

I turn around and say:

"How does my form look?" (while pulling back the bow and hunching up my
shoulders).

"Looks good!" comes the answer! "You sure are grouping nice down there!"

I think to myself... I can actually put back 55# and shoot this traditional bow!... Well, I should be able to, I shoot a 70# compound bow! There is no
way in hell, that I am going to purchase that 30# bow that can't fling a arrow enough to kill a deer. What a waste of energy making them... let alone
someone foolish enough to purchase one.


I think to myself...3 more weeks until hunting season...I think I can do
it! If I can group like that, why not? I can always use my ethical way of
hunting and shoot only the distance that I can place my arrows in a 9 inch
paper plate! Right now, that is about 20 feet, thats pretty good for just
picking up a bow and never practicing! My arms are wobbly from the weight, but I could handle the 70# compound after a few weeks, and this is a 55# bow!

I can pull it back, I just got through shooting 10 arrows in a 8 inch group
at 20 feet! The salesman says I have good form! The bow is big enough for big game!...(out comes my 500 dollars for this bow that is just perfect for me).


Off I go.. with my brand new bow...to my archery range or backyard.


I nock up my arrow and LET -HER -FLY! Holy @#$$# My arrow went like
someone had removed all the feathers, placed the weight on the nock instead of the tip, and put it through a pipe bender.

After piddling around for a while, taking the compound shooters advice, I
move my nock around until the arrows are flying somewhat OK. But other
problems arise.

1. My group at 20 yards is beyond the paper on the NFAA target. Hitting
the paper is a challenge in itself.
2. My arms are turning rubbery from all the shooting and missing.
3. I am getting frustrated because I can't shoot as good as I did in
Cabellas or Bass Pro.


So I decided the INTERNET is the place to go...Lots of good advice there! I
google up ******** and tell them (I had to change the name of the site(s), so not to insult anyone). And what kind of advice do I get?

1. STAY FOCUSED.
2. 55# is a GOOD bow weight.
3. I focus on the intended target and use "instinctive" shooting.
4. Stick with it, it will become easier as you practice.
5. Those guys at Archery Talk in the traditional section are clueless
about hunting and bows. They only want to sell you a "Girlie" bow. We are
HUNTERS, not shooters. Shooting paper does nothing but waste your time,
hunting is where your skills are tested. Paper shooters "freeze up" and can't
hit a dime in a hunting situation, but we can kill a deer.
6. I hunt with 70# all the time 55# is a little light, but will do the job.


So, I decide to ask the BIG question. How well do you group? And OH MY
GOSH!!! the answers I receive are amazing! (But they must be true).

1. I group all my arrows in a 3 inch circle at 25 yards.
2. I group 4 inch circles at 40 yards.
3. I always hit the stump I am shooting at.
4. I don't measure groups, I just shoot all my deer within 10 feet. And
my son is going hunting with me this week, I am going to show him how ethical it is to keep your shots within the range you can hit that 9 inch paper plate!

His distance is 10 feet right now... but in time it will lengthen.


After a while, I decided to try Archery Talk. (AT). So I mosey down to the
traditional section and ask the same questions. Who comes back? Viper,
Dwayne, and a few others. And what do they tell me? Everything I do NOT WANT TO HEAR!

1. I am overbowed. (way overbowed on top of that!)
2. Purchase a cheapie bow of 30 or 35 pounds MAX and learn to shoot that.
3. Shoot at targets (that paper stuff)
4. Put a REST on MY TRADITIONAL BOW??????
5. Use a SIGHT (a FRICKEN SIGHT!!!) on MY Traditional bow????
6. My arrows are WRONG????
7. My finger grip is wrong.
8. My haunched up shoulder form that I have perfected is wrong.
9. All my buddies at the other sites are full of it.

I scratch my head and think...What do they know about hunting? (heck, I
have been mind ingrained that hunting and paper shooting are two different
things, and I hear all about my buddies shooting all these deer at 5 yards and
less). So I mosey back to the other site and ask the same questions, and I
receive the same answers.

I am here now, on Archery talk. I have finally came to the conclusion that
my bow is way too much. I tried a NFAA shooting round of 60 arrows, and was thoroughly disappointed. I scored a 130 out of 300. I did get a 180 though one time! (But that kid next to me scored a 265... how embarrassing)

I have learned about stacking, overbowing, and proper arrows.
I have learned about why feathers are better than vanes.
I have learned about how to silence bows.
I have learned that sights are OK on traditional bows.
I have learned that "Traditional Way" is a "Ego" word.
I have learned that those Girlie bows are a tremendous help.
I have learned that Form is 95 percent of your shot.
I have learned that Paper targets show your progress and help you become a better shot.
I have learned that those 3 inch groups at 25 yards are BS groups, and
cannot be repeated time and time again.
I have learned that *anyone* who places 60 arrows in a row in a 3 inch
circle at 20 yards is superman...And that the world record holder hasn't done
that yet.
I have learned that technics that work for me, may not work for someone
else.
I have learned that hunting is not about flinging arrows until you find the
"ethical distance" you can kill, but about being able to place that arrow in
the spot you want it to go. This means practicing on paper and scoring
yourself to show improvement.

And most important of all:

I have learned that they care about *me* becoming the BEST archer I
possibly can be, Whether that is on the hunting, 3D or target range. They
have spoken out against the "traditional" BS that goes along archery, wanting me to achieve goals that are beyond the everyday John Doe's ability and ethics.

New Archery talk member....(Yeah right).
 

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Boy Dwayne you must have been into the caffeine this morning. Next time I do as much typing as you just did, you'll be able to read it in TBM. :wink:
 

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VM -

I think that was an all nighter. Pretty good summation, though - it seems to replay often enough :(

Viper1 out.
 

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Oh it's dead-on. Hope he enjoyed the venting and who knows maybe someone will read it and some of it will stick, but that's probably hoping for too much.
 

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2nd Amend. Don't lose it
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Discussion Starter #5
<chuckle> I was going to add a LOT more, but decided to keep it down a little bit. :wink: :darkbeer:

But I mainly did it, because I was at the archery range a day or so ago...and just about every senario played out that you would not want to play out. It was totally asinine, embarrassing, and beyond your imagination.

We have a "computerized" ITS? shooting game. It's where filmed animals walk across the screen, and you shoot at them. You are scored 10-heart, 8-vital, 5-body, 0-face it, you screwed up.

I watched these 4 so-called Archers and hunters play this game. All had recurves that were 55+ pounds. One actually had the odassity to come to me and say thier "leader" is a great hunter. When this leader came up to shoot, he had full camo on, and everything else.

He bluntly said: You should practice in what you will be wearing during your hunt.

Then he proceeded to take his turn. As the deer walked across the screen and started slowing down for the "shot", he jumped around sideways this and that (as if he was trying to confuse the deer, or something), did the fastest snap shot I have seen (never anchored that I know of), and let that arrow fly.

That arrow came out of that bow from about the 10 yard line, and the amount of occilation, tail wagging, and irratic flight that arrow did, it almost hit the screen sideways. (And this was their leader, that was going to be their guide to new hunting grounds!) (By the way... he did hit the deer...in the body, so chaulk him up for 5 points:pukey: ) Unfortunately this guy proceeded to tell them how to shoot their bow, what to expect during the hunt, and (Ah yes...1 week from now) they are going DEER HUNTING!.

Needless to say.... I picked up my stuff and left. It reminded me too much of some of the things I read all the time on some Archery forums. (But they are hunters!).

So what do we have??? 4 "dairy-airs" (I know, bad pun) that are totally clueless on what they are holding in their hand, looking up to a jackass that can't shoot, tune, or pull back a traditional bow, and are learning from a "hunter" who can hit a pie plate at 10 feet, not 10 yards.

So much for Caffeine <g>. I hope maybe some of the new folks will read my "Bible Story" and see some of the asinine things people do. And maybe learn from it? Take heed to it? And realize most people get caught up into some part of it at one time or another.

Maybe the foolishness of how I wrote it, will allow them to have a little insight on how it sounds and looks if you don't ask questions.

Dwayne
 

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DwayneR, Viper, Vermonster, I have been reading your stuff for a while and have found it to be very helpfull. Alot of advice that I wish I had years ago.
Learned a lot of what you say the hard and expensive way. We have a local trad bow club here that the three of you would have a feild day at. I have tried to share some of what I learned from you gentlemen and others with some of them, Just made suggestions or asked what if. And they did not want to here it. They are on the other site regular and believe that if you did not carve your bow out of a stick or have the latest trendy bow you are unworthy.

Thank you for being open minded and sharing your knowledge.
:) :)
 

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I've recently come to the conclusion that the whole trad-fad has got to go. Look what it's doing to the sport. It's filling up with the wrong people and the people who should be participating are driven away by the Tradiban. The Tradiban should go put dead animals on their heads and go be king poop on turd island. They should go impress themselves and each other and stop bullying everyone else in this sport with their fashion and egos. A lot of compounders are afraid to try pulleyless archery because they see people blowing lots of money on crap, act like they changed religions, and shoot like crap. Most people get intimidated by that and don't play. People need to be shown that a person CAN shoot well with a pulleyless bow and they don't have to convert to Islam in order to use this archery equipment. We're all archers. The Tradibahn should put a sock in it.

I'm wrong. Put roadkill on your head and squat like you're pinching one off behind a tree. Get a real pretty longbow that stacks like a pile of flap-jacks at Ihop. Go for it. Be a good consumer. I'm going to bed.
 

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Oh, man! You're not traditional!

You're right. I'm not traditional. I'm just a guy who prefers to shoot recurves.
 

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2nd Amend. Don't lose it
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Discussion Starter #9
Hello dgf,

DwayneR, Viper, Vermonster, I have been reading your stuff for a while and have found it to be very helpfull. Alot of advice that I wish I had years ago.
Learned a lot of what you say the hard and expensive way. We have a local trad bow club here that the three of you would have a feild day at. I have tried to share some of what I learned from you gentlemen and others with some of them, Just made suggestions or asked what if. And they did not want to here it. They are on the other site regular and believe that if you did not carve your bow out of a stick or have the latest trendy bow you are unworthy.

Thank you for being open minded and sharing your knowledge.
There are others like Chad (LBR) and V A that do their best to help (sorry if I missed some of the others.

The only thing we are trying to do, is helping a person *BECOME* a better archer than they are now. Anyone can fling arrows. And when they fling them, than can (after a while) be somewhat accurate compared to the average shooter. But when they step up to the plate and shoot next to a person who actually has stopped to work on Form...on that (O My goodness) that dreaded paper!... It starts to really show.

One thing to remember, is that not every person is built the same. This means that what may work for one person, maynot work for the next. But it is good to remember everything, because there may become a time another person will "fit" that cliche of info.

IMO if a person is in archery for "hunting" there is a very good chance they are destroying what archery is all about. Hunting is a secondary branch to Archery. The primary purpose of Archery (IMO) is the satisfaction of being able to place that arrow where you want it. To better yourself. To tune your eye/hand/muscle cordination. To have fun and socialize with others that enjoy the same sport. The offspring of this is hunting for those who want or like to hunt. I love to hunt, but I know that being able to place my arrow where I want it, far outweighs just flinging arrows until I find a distance I can place the arrows within a kill zone...then brag about how ethical I am for doing so.

Throughout the years, the word "Traditional" has become almost a taboo word to some degrees. I wrote a reponse on this (I will not repeat it) about 1 month ago, and kinda got creamed. I was just "talking" in a third person sinse. Talking not as advice, not as a response, but in a way to show how rediculous the word "Traditional" is. I guess the return responder wasn't too happy, and accused me of making fun of him, when in reality it had nothing to do with him. Others understood what I said and explained to him, but I guess I touched a wrong button on him. Was it because I just got through showing how rediculous the whole thing was? and that all of his friends fit in that catagory? I don't know.

My idea (along with others that I know of) just want everyone to become a better archer than what they are now. Want to know what will please me the most??? #1 thing that will just tickle my fancy and make me the happiest archer around... "For my students (or the people I help) to become better shots than me."

Lets uplift Archery, help others learn the right way, help others from learning the *hard* way. help others to understand archery is not just about shooting at paper or just hunting, and help others make the transition into CAM-LESS bows as easy and enjoyable as can be.

Dwayne
 

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2nd Amend. Don't lose it
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Discussion Starter #10
Hello Feral Donkey,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the whole trad-fad has got to go. Look what it's doing to the sport. It's filling up with the wrong people and the people who should be participating are driven away by the Tradiban. The Tradiban should go put dead animals on their heads and go be king poop on turd island. They should go impress themselves and each other and stop bullying everyone else in this sport with their fashion and egos.
I hear you... and I agree with you. Unfortunately the word "Traditional" is used as a "elite" word on some sites. The end result, are the people getting caught up into a definition and social status of archery. When this happens, the "herding" effect comes into play. Here is a newcomer...with a bunch of "traditional" archers that claim bogus ability to shoot, claim to be "great white hunters" (which I have no doubt that some of them are good hunters), and herd together with all this "great equipment" that only "men" shoot. Anything outside their group are clueless about hunting and traditional equipment. If a person repeats something long enough, it usually becomes true. It doesn't mean it is the truth, but in their mind it has become truth. Facts show differently. I and others focus on facts that WORK. Then we focus on *what* makes those Facts work.

Lets take a example...everyone knows "Aim small, miss small" Its true. But if a person has poor form, arrows that don't match, nock points off, too low of a brace height, or any number of things, that "Aim small, miss small" is not much good to them at that point.

So what do you have? (It seems) two schools of thought...

1. Find out if there is a form problem or bow problem.
2. Just keep practicing, it will come to you eventually, and you can still go hunt if you stay within your ethical range". (And this is how all of us elite people did it!)


Good to hear from you Feral Donkey...You should post more.

Dwayne
 

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Don't forget arrow problem. I see more arrows mismatched to bows then ever before. To many folks getting arrows using the Easton Charts in shops whose main business is compounds.
 

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2nd Amend. Don't lose it
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Discussion Starter #12
Hello Vermonster,

Don't forget arrow problem. I see more arrows mismatched to bows then ever before. To many folks getting arrows using the Easton Charts in shops whose main business is compounds.
Now really Vermonster... Do you REALLY want me to go there? After reading a E-novel just yesterday of my messed up mind? I bet I can write another E-novel on this very subject... or do you really want me to "shaft" you, until you get the "point"? Then I could "nock" you on the floor, dust you off with my "feathers", and pick up the "Pile" when I am done? (Just giving you a hard time, and checking out my new Egonomic keyboard. :wink: :darkbeer:


Dwayne
 

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You could always get some of those Easton Fatboy shafts and fill them full of dry Portland cement powder. Don't get the stuff with latex in it because latex robs you of a little weight and latex just isn't traditional. Just keep tapping them as you're filling them so it settles in good like you would a compressed load in a rifle case. I wouldn't recomend shooting them in the rain, but that would make them plenty heavy. If you don't want to go quite that heavy, corn starch mixed with #7 lead shot works great.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh, crap. I shouldn't joke about these things. Someone might just get the idea to try it.

Kids, don't run with scissors and don't fill your arrows full of portland cement. :D
 

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Gents -

Given the number of "I'm new to trad and am thinking of a #60 - 70 bow" threads, I think it's time to bring this thread back.

Viper1 out.
 

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True as all that is, it seems to hold true in every sport, hobby, or past time. In general, most people don't want to start with light weight bows, small motorcycles. low powered cars, or small houses. They want 70 # bows, Harleys, sport cars, 5000 square foot houses as starter homes

There was a time when people progressed step by step. Now people have conditioned themselves to believe they can go straight to the top and skip everything between.

IMO, What you guys see in archery is just another reflection of what goes on in all walks of life
 

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True as all that is, it seems to hold true in every sport, hobby, or past time. In general, most people don't want to start with light weight bows, small motorcycles. low powered cars, or small houses. They want 70 # bows, Harleys, sport cars, 5000 square foot houses as starter homes

There was a time when people progressed step by step. Now people have conditioned themselves to believe they can go straight to the top and skip everything between.

IMO, What you guys see in archery is just another reflection of what goes on in all walks of life
I think you are on to something FL archer. In many ways it's as much a cultural thing as an archery thing.

Dave
 

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?????

Dwayne how much easter bunny chocolate did you eat before going into this... But your scenario is oh so true and oh so funny ... I think the regulars have heard it all and seen it all as described by you.... thanks for the sunday morning chuckle ....
 

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I may not post a lot but I'm glad you guys are on here. I was learning from the heavy superbow crowd at first. But after reading and trying your advice I feel I am a better archer. Some folks just have the be hard headed and learn the hard way I guess.
 

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I think you are on to something FL archer. In many ways it's as much a cultural thing as an archery thing.

Dave
Another thing I have noticed that may also apply to archery:

I made my living in the Diving and sport fishing industry. I thought that I had learned a thing or two after 35 + working years on the water.

Then I met my son in law and his friends, that have a couple of years experience between the bunch of them.

I have offered very little advise and the little I did offer was not well received. I have learned some things from them though.

I must go buy the latest and greatest 500.00 reel and 200.00 rod to catch fish. My old Penn reels just don't cut it no more. My fishing lures are outdated and I should toss them out and buy new. My old sneakers, shorts and Tee shirts are not acceptable to wear when wading the flats. I need the latest fishing designer wear to catch fish.

There are some great younger people and then we have a few like the ones above. Years ago, younger people looked to elders to learn from their experience. Now some still do, but others consider the older experienced person's views to be obsolute.

It don't bother me a bit. To this day, I consistantly catch fish using my old outdated gear/methods while the son in law and friends come home empty handed. I don't offer advise unless I am directly asked. I let them learn the hard way, if they prefer. I never argue or try to force a point. I just grin to myself and keep doing what I do.
 
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