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I want to get this out of the way now before the ATA show. There are a number of new products out on the market that will be introduced in a few weeks. Some of these I have been asked my OPINION of during prototyping and some of those OPINIONS have been used in the products construction. Other items I will be as surprized at what I get handed as anyone else that is in the dark about a new item. I tend to look at products from a few perspectives. The first is "would I use it myself? " The next is "would my customers use it?" the next is "Is it worth the price?", the last is "Can I sell it??". This is the criteria I use to judge all the products I see. I personaly have access as a dealer to a vast pile of stuff I never sell because it does not fall positively into one or more of those criteria. Does that mean it is a POS?? No, it is MY OPINION!!! and that is all. That being said, I will give MY OPINION on what I see and I will give it honestly. If others dissagree, they are more than welcome to.

Now....when a manufacturer comes out with a product that I have had no input on at the prototype level at all and IN MY OPINION I either find it lacking, or not falling positively into my criteria I will say so. It is natural for a company to defend its position and try to persuade me that their product is exactly what the world is looking for, but if IN MY OPINION it is not the bees knees and that company did not ask for MY OPINION of the product back when changes could have been made then that company has NO RIGHT to be upset when MY OPINION of their product is not all rose petals and sunshine.

Now...being the opinionated SOB that I am and having enough arrogance that I think I am right even when I am not (just ask my wife) I can come accross harsher than I actually intend. I am going to try to tone down some of my negitive comments. I will, however not hold back on my OPINIONS for the sake of political correctness. So be aware, I will call things as I see them and if I hear "Well, all the pro-staff we showed it to liked it" or " you are the only one who has any issue with it" or "why would you want to talk negitive about something you want to sell and make money with" and I had no input on its design then MY OPINION is as much fair game to be heard as anyone elses....

Wyvern
 

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Hot new stuff

sometimes I wonder if.. the difference in price of a really great product is worth the small difference in the product above a close or similar product... I think they call that "value" ... as usual can hardly wait to get your "TAKE" on what is new! Thanks Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #3
"value" is another thing entirely. I can give you the diferances between a $700 bow and a $1000 bow but it is up to the end user, NOT the dealer to determine if the added cost is worth it, or the item has enough "value" to justify the price. That is a very personal thing.

Wyvern
 

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Everyone is entitled to their "own" opinion! I get a Kick out of watching the diffrent company's "trying to reinvent the wheel":rolleyes:! From more speed,to the best scope,to better arrows,ect. The firearm company's aren't any diffrent either. Every year they try to invent a new cartridge,that will make the one you used last year (with great results) obsolete this year!:confused: Some (rare) items are a real break through,some are just ideas,from diffrent companys, combined to make a product that "does it all"!:banana: One thing is for sure,we will never run out of new products to look at, and think about.:drool:
 

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Agreed you can count on that from him.:darkbeer:
 

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"David, I appreciate straightforward honesty, refreshing, Ron."

Well...just so you all know, I have already been threatend with having my account closed by a manufactuer for my "opinion" since it was not a shinning review of a particular new product. These manufactuers seriously need to get a grip....:mad: Basicly its the "if you cant say anything nice..." theory here. No wonder honesty is so rare in this industry. If you dare to "pour water" on a new product you hear "Nail him to the cross!!". Im freaking sick of it!!! Is my opinion gospel?? Of course not, but i back up every opinion with fact. Is it the only opinion??? Of course not, but when I see that both sides have a point and I say something like "they need to come out wiht more than one version" I catch crap for it. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I hope more than just you Ron appreciate my honesty because I may not be able to sell at least one manufactuer next year over my "honest opinion"

NOT starting my morning off well here!!!!

Wyvern
 

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"value" is another thing entirely. I can give you the diferances between a $700 bow and a $1000 bow but it is up to the end user, NOT the dealer to determine if the added cost is worth it, or the item has enough "value" to justify the price. That is a very personal thing.

Wyvern
Totally agree the consumer has to deterime what needs are fullfilled and the value of the item. Footbalfan
 

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Atta boy Wyvern

Dave your (If you can't say anything nice don't say anything) is definately not in the members of the Forums best interests thats how I wound up with a grand hanging on a hook and I tried to research the bow but all was quiet I have ruffled some feathers here and elsewhere but when someone sells me something that ain't up to snuff I will tell anybody that will listen and a bunch that don't really care. I have said it before and I'll say it again the entire industry could use a good dose of lets shoot this thing awhile and see if it falls apart I was flabber gasted that Excaliber built a cocker that wouldn't fit the new stock talk about stepping on something painful they fixed it but that just isn't the way I'm used to seeing that company do business. The entire crossbow industry could keep a little better tolerences on their products nocks breaking cutting strings etc.
 

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David, I appreciate straightforward honesty, refreshing, Ron.
A big X2 on that!!!!

Plus I really enjoy reading your post. You have already helped me tremendously on my future purchase from you. I have learned a lot from you and others on this site! I will call you soon now that I will be on the Holiday break from teaching after today.
 

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I hope more than just you Ron appreciate my honesty because I may not be able to sell at least one manufactuer next year over my "honest opinion"


Wyvern
Much appreciated. That is one of the biggest reason for these web forums. You won't get an unbiased review from a magazine, that's for sure. Walk the tightrope carefully.
 

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The best is coming soon.

wyvern,We appreciate your honesty on the Hawkes new scope, it is over priced for what you get,
I have a Hawke scope and its a good optics, came on my Tornado
but i prefer centerpoints crossbow multireticle over the Hawke,IMHO its a better crossbow optics, and the price is very low compared to the Hawke
Its a shame you can not get a true review on AT because there are paid posters who only prefer to give good reviews only on the products they sell or get free products in exchange to promote there products on these forums.
If its not something they sell or get free products from companys to promote there said products its called a POS, even though they have never seen or owned one of these products themselfs.

There is a new crossbow scope coming soon that has a built in rangefinder for crossbows,
a lot like the bushnell and burris laser scopes but smaller and crossbow specific
In the 350 dollar price range,,In a 44 mm size..It will hit the market in 2010,
 

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Much appreciated. That is one of the biggest reason for these web forums. You won't get an unbiased review from a magazine, that's for sure. Walk the tightrope carefully.
Count me in the crowd that values your opinions. I can't help but think if a mfgr pulls the plug on you for expressing yours, it will increase your business traffic.

You've saved numerous buyers time and money by being honest, and built quite a following doing so. My vote is to keep on keepin on and let the chips fall where they may.
 

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Yup!:) That's what makes forums worth reading! A "uncompensated" review,is worth much more than a "compensated" review any day! You would think that all crossbows are being shot,like a varmit rifle!:icon_1_lol: The last time I checked,a crossbow was a "short range" weapon. A long shot at game (around here anyway would be 40 yds.) or 120 feet!:) It dosen't take much of a scope to shoot at that range. Infact it dosen't take a scope at all to shoot that far,period. The way all the company's copy each other,ends up being the same thing"most of the time" in a diffrent package. I've noticed the "speed adjustable" feature is showing up on more scopes now. I wonder where that concept came from?:confused2: Same thing with the ranging,and circles in the plex? All this stuff is intresting,but when it comes down to it,diffrent people like diffrent things,and any time a company tells someone that they shouldn't give their honest opinion,on a product:tape:,is a RED flag to me! Ron
 

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wyvern your opinion counts here.

i value your opinion very much here dave, when i bought my crossbows i have taught myself alot, till i got archery talk, then started reading things on here. will question some things if there differance in opinions. but so far you have not lead me wrong. truth means alot these days, we sure don't get it from the goverment and all their croney agencies. so i value your opinion for sure. you maybe 1500 miles from but that makes no differance if your telling me what is right and what is wrong on here. so my friend don't let those that think their way is the only way get you down. i went to some seminars back years ago with bob faulkrod and chuck adams. they have the additude that if you are not doing the way they do it then you doing it wrong. thats not true. so needless to say i did any longer take advice or opinions from those guys.
thanks dave for your advice and opinions
 

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I also value your opinions, David. You have helped me a great deal.

BUT, I am afraid our goodwill doesn't do you much good in the world of Corporate America. That is especially true if you are a vendor of a product manufactured by a corporation that retaliates against vendors who point out flaws in their product.

The fact is they have power over you -- cutting you off. A second and even more important fact is that "speaking truth to power" doesn't lead to a smooth career path. I spent 30+ years in Corporate America and learned to survive in it, mostly by realizing those 2 important facts.

What I suggest you do is to find some way to smooth over the troubled waters so you can continue to carry their products which you like. Just because you don't like one product doesn't mean you can't honestly sell their other products -- which is still a win-win situation. You might help your case by pointing out what you have sold their other stuff in the past (I assume you have sold their product for a while) and would continue to do so without reservation. You might also point out your large customer base (and your good reputation on this site -- which has a big audience).

Just some thoughts. I hope they help. Send me a private message if you want to discuss some points further privately.

Regardless, I hope things work out well for you!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
"What I suggest you do is to find some way to smooth over the troubled waters so you can continue to carry their products which you like"

I try to smooth where I can....most of the time it works :)

If I find a product that I truly dont like or dont have confidence in I will not sell it, or I will sell it with the understanding that it is not my first choice. If I dont like an aspect of a product though in many instances it is taken as I hate the entire thing which is incorrect. My bluntness and in many instances poor choice of wording goes against me, but if I find 5 things right and one thing wrong all anyone hears is the wrong. Nothing is perfect, every thing has a pro and a con. What I normaly do is say "this is good, so is this, this is OK, and this could have been done better, but overall it is a great product". Is that slamming a product??? Not in my opinion, it is being honest so my customers know what to expect. Many never even notice the negitive I point out, some even prefer it, but isnt it better to know the potential cons of a product that may or may not be a factor in its use? In many instances I have more experience than my customers or at the least a diferant perspective and I try to lend that to what I do.

This industry, thank God, is not all that "corporate"....yet. I have butted heads with a CEO or two but ya know...the titles dont impress me. Mostly they are good people who just have no clue what to do with me, and honestly I really dont make it easy for alot of them....the one big "con" about myself :)

Wyvern
 

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I try to smooth where I can....most of the time it works :)

If I find a product that I truly dont like or dont have confidence in I will not sell it, or I will sell it with the understanding that it is not my first choice.

In many instances I have more experience than my customers or at the least a diferant perspective and I try to lend that to what I do.

This industry, thank God, is not all that "corporate"....yet. I have butted heads with a CEO or two but ya know...the titles dont impress me. Mostly they are good people who just have no clue what to do with me, and honestly I really dont make it easy for alot of them....the one big "con" about myself :)

Wyvern
Well, then, carry on my friend. I hope things continue to work out well for you.
 

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Dave keep up the good work. My opinion about a manufacturer threatening any retailer or distributor that give a critique of their product, is to post on here and let us take care of their ass. We can boycott and reduce their sales the next quarter for them and show them who's boss in the archery world. We are. You make what we don't want, don't back it the way it should be, or have crappy customer service, it is our duty to put them out of business and get all them new jobs in the food serice indusry or perhap house cleaning industries.
 
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