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Discussion Starter #1
I recently found a nice old Darton recurve bow at a rummage sale and have been getting myself set up to start practicing.

I've read/watched a lot of material so far on technology and technique but like I said.. I'm new at this. The problem I'm trying to correct is this: I can shoot an old feather fletched arrow perfectly, as in it flies straight with no visible wobble. When i try to shoot a vaned arrow there's a good deal of wobble and power loss. Here's my setup:

Darton 58" 44# recurve bow, dacron 14 strand 58"AMO string, twisted to a brace height of 7.5"
Hoyt Super Rest
30.5" gold tip 400 spine vaned carbon arrows with 100 grain field tips. (based this on the gold tip recurve spine chart)

During paper tuning my new arrows were uncorrectable, the points were hitting about 1.75" to the left of the fletching. The original feathered arrows shot true through the paper.

So the vanes are hitting the arrow rest? But my understanding is that the super rest should work fine with vaned arrows?

I was able to try a small pile of old-as-dirt aluminum arrows. They all had much softer vanes than my new carbon arrows and they shot straighter. Not as good as the feathered arrows though. Also during that test two of the old arrows lost a vane before impacting the target. I have no idea what the spine was on any of them but the weight and diameter varied, and they ALL shot much much better than my carbon arrows.

So what am I misunderstanding here? A seasoned bowhunter has watched me and not found any glaring issue with technique. I tried using a spacer under the super rest to no effect. It's got to be the arrows, but then how are other people shooting vanes with this rest?

~Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading!
 

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Discussion Starter #2
So I went to a brick and mortar archery shop and the guys there were very helpful. I'm now shooting feather fletched carbon express heritage 90s with 125g tips. The results are much better than with the previous arrows. They explained that these are slightly heavier, slightly weaker (500 spine ish) and the heavier tips make them flex even more.

So my question now is what don't I understand here? Are modern recurves significantly different than mine? Why would the gold tip recurve spine chart not work for me?
 

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I can make a few points, hopefully with the blessing of all the folks on here who know so much more than me.

The concept you need to research is Dynamic Spine. This is the stiffness of the spine, as it's being pushed forward by a string, and affected by all the forces and variables involved. Static spine is merely the stiffness, rated by how much is flexes with a weight hung in the middle, suspended by it's two ends. Static. Not moving.

There are many things that affect dynamic spine. Some you've indicated. Static spine of the arrow, length of the arrow, rated weight of the bow, Draw length (and how that changes how many pounds are actually being pulled at full draw), Brace height, how much weight is at the front, how much weight is at the back, how far in your riser is cut to and how thick if your strike plate if you're using one....and there is more.

For example, 30.5" .400 spine with a 100gr tip seemed a bit stiff, but again, there are still many unknown variables. Vanes are usually heavier than feathers, and heavier back ends increase dynamic spine stiffness.

Fact is, the charts are there to give approximations. They show a pattern of how length, spine, and bow weight interact, but they cannot be taken as gospel. There are way more variables than the charts usually incorporate, not to mention every rig and every archer is different.
Again, take the charts with a MASSIVE grain of salt. Try to understand them and why they show what they do, but tuning is a much deeper process.
 

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Vanes CAN be shot off a simple rest. But it will be very frustrating for a beginner. Vanes need best possible state of tune. Vanes need near perfect form and execution from the shooter. A beginner is not able to deliver either.

You would be ahead to obtain and shoot feather fletched arrows while you learn to shoot and learn to tune.

For example the charts are usually wrong. Those 400's are too stiff. Makes the vane situation even worse.

But ya gotta start SOMEWHERE right?

Start here:

http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html

Click on "down load printable version."

Sure, you can actually tune only as well as you can shoot. But there is info in there that will get you started on learning how to tune and thereby make better choices concerning initial arrow shaft selection.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks both of you. Everything you said makes sense. It's strange to me that I had to end up confused in a forum.. Usually I can find a youtube video explaining anything I want to know in depth from eight different perspectives.

I've been very surprised at how much nitpicky tinkering there is in archery. Luckily I'm a nitpicky tinkerer! With arrows that shoot as straight as my skill allows I'm off to the next project.. So far my string from Lancaster was ridiculously long, and the replacement I got from Amazon is already falling apart. So guess who's learning how to make a bowstring!
 

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There is a LOT of BS on the Internet and on You Tube surrounding Archery. No not all of it is worthless, but it does take a well developed BS filter to sort through it to find anything actually useful. Unfortunately the only way to get a good BS filter is through time, experience, and spending time with those who actually engage in Archery, rather than blowing their time making You Tube videos.
 

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Thanks both of you. Everything you said makes sense. It's strange to me that I had to end up confused in a forum.. Usually I can find a youtube video explaining anything I want to know in depth from eight different perspectives.

I've been very surprised at how much nitpicky tinkering there is in archery. Luckily I'm a nitpicky tinkerer! With arrows that shoot as straight as my skill allows I'm off to the next project.. So far my string from Lancaster was ridiculously long, and the replacement I got from Amazon is already falling apart. So guess who's learning how to make a bowstring!
These guys are doing the traditional community a great service with their videos and podcast. Check out this video to get started...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E1vKkSSoNs&t=3942s

Make sure you try the podcast, both entertaining and instructional. All very well done.

Some good shooting videos from member Moebow...https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=moebow+1&oq=moebow&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0l2.18588.20865.0.22953.6.6.0.0.0.0.116.641.1j5.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.h2cuKoCXR1U

Some more good videos, both teaching and general archery lifestyle...https://www.youtube.com/user/jimmyblackmon?feature=watch
 

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There ya go. See, it's not all hopeless, but you gotta be selective. Easykeeper's references there are good.
 

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One of the worst things about archery is 'bad things work'. And they work regularly. And THEN THEY DON"T. I took a class from a well know coach and half the class had target panic from another well know coach. It's very hard especially for a rookie to separate the good from missinfo. There's so much missinfo on YouTube, I quit watching everything with the exclusion of the 'very' well known.

Archers are basically uncoached as a group. What are the odds of you having good form to start - 0, zero, zip... But archery has a good quality for which this same quality in heroin is bad. So we have this addicted guy practicing what he thinks is good form and after a lot of practice/addiction he becomes pretty darned good at 20 yards. (if he would have practiced with a coach the same amount of time he'd be good at 40, and wouldn't have to worry when those bad things when they don't work) Then he kills a big whitetail, I mean really big, that can go to your head. It would go to mine. Soon we see a "this is how I do it" video on YouTube. Well the guy is a pretty good shot at 20, but you'll never see him shooting at Lancaster next to Demmer shooting at 20. He's tried so hard to be good at 20 that he thinks it's the gold standard. It's not.

By the way, I'd watch a Demmer YouTube video. Oh yea, I have at Lancaster, European Nationals... Actually, I meant instructional. Those are if you know what to look for.

Duck, you mention charts. There's way too many variables for charts to be accurate. If we all shot the same poundage and had the same draw length they'd still be pretty inaccurate. Form has a lot to do with tuned arrows. Think of Demmer and a new guy that doesn't know what alignment is. I'm just using alignment as an example, there's other parts of the shot that can affect tune. When Demmer shoots his alignment is in a 90 degree plane to the nock of the arrow. THat energy that he released to the arrow is going to make the arrow flex first right (He's right handed) and then LEFT with an EQUAL amount of force. It's called paradox.

THe new guy on the other hand, comes to full draw and his elbow is 3 inches from proper alignment. When he releases the force of the bow is not hitting the nock at 90 degrees. It's imparting force to the arrow at an angle to the nock. Flex will not be equal and the new guy needs a stiffer arrow to make it fly straight.

You'd do well to learn www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version'. Copy that and forget about shooting through paper except for verification.

John I'm only using your name because it gets the point across and my mind is not very creative.

Bowmania
 

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Duck, take a look at your arrow rest. It may need replacing, and probably shows a ton of wear from those stiff arrows. A stiff arrow will ride the rest for the full length of it, and the lower hen feather will show wear from hitting it. Properly spined arrow will only ride the rest for a minimal time, then paradox around it. Your rest will last a very long time with the correct arrows. Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@Lunger: You better believe it. There was a arrow diameter arc ground out of the little spacer tab on the super rest. I had a second one lying around and that one has now shot ten times the arrows and is still going strong.

@Easykeeper: That's a lot of really great info to go though. Thanks for taking the time to link it.

@Bowmania: I think I have a lot of reading do do on alignment and a 'good' release. I'm going to nab a few bare shafts the next time I'm at an archery shop as I'm just starting to have enough accuracy for it to maybe tell me something.

At least string making is straight forward! I'll post some pictures of my built-from-scraps jig and serving spinner over in the DIY section.

Thanks for all the help everyone!
 

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Duck alignment is simple. You should read about things that are more complicated and let your coach align you. Archery is a learning curve. You can leeeeennnggggthen it by reading about it and then try to do it yourself or get a coach and shorten it by A LOT.

Al Henderson wrote a book called "Understanding Winning Archery". In it he asks his wife who was an 96 time national champion, what's the hardest part of archery? Not a quote, but "making sure your body is doing what your mind thinks it is doing". Everyone here who has gained some level of expertise has had a video taken of themselves and knows what that statement means.

Bowmania
 
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