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Discussion Starter #1
I recently posed this question on another forum without much success as far as replies... being a new member here I've only just had a chance to look at past topics/threads here on AT. It seems my question would have been better asked here, so...

What ever happened to all the experiments/testing in regards to using fast flight material for the timing system and power cables on Oneida style bows? It seemed at one point a few peeps were saying it was the way to go... going to do this on my Stealth/BE/etc... beyond hearing/reading "I'm going to do this" I've seen no follow ups... here's what I did... turned out great... going to be the cats meow...

What is/was the final outcome?

Gerry
 

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A company called 5150 built some bows with just that and they had their followers but it seems that the guys that bought and used them were also some haters. The company has some wicked looking bows but reading on them it appears keeping the bow in time and in tune was a nightmare. 5150 no longer makes bows and only the bowfishing community really embraces the few still out their (I think) best I can see.

If it had really been a advancement I think Oneida would have implemented into their bows, they have not so that says something.

Just my opinion though.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply jb... your answer is basically the same as the only one I received in the other forum I mentioned.

I asked the question in hopes that people that actually took the time to "improve" their bows by using fast flight cables as opposed to steel would give details of the end results. Like you I believe if there had been any advantages to using fast flight for cables it would have been taken advantage of by now.

This idea has been around for a decade... people to this day still saying Oneida needs to get with the times and drop the steel cables. Oneidas aren't "wheelie" bows... fast flight simply will not work well with them. Hell it couldn't even be done that well with a simpler bow such as the Discovery.

I guess the silence from all those that have experimented in improving their Stealths/Black Eagles/etc with fast flight cabling says all that needs to be said.

Again thanks you jb... appreciate you're taking the time to reply.

Gerry
 

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This is the closest I've seen to one in the wild... Bob Beneteau's all-synthetic Extreme Eagle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyBiDiT4ip4

So it's possible. I've never heard whether it was better or not.

But the Oneida is designed to run on cables with the specific characteristics of steel cables. So it would seem plausible that, until someone designs a lever-cam bow specifically to run on synthetic harnessing, you probably won't see the full potential of the materials realised on an Oneida.
 

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ive seen a few as my old neighbor had a proto type from Monster and I believe it was on a stealth cam. it was quiet and seemed to work but I don't know much more about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I talk with Joe frequently on many things and we have talked the fast flight issue on occasion... but when it's all said and done he doesn't have any first hand experience with fitting Oneidas/lever action bows with FF material. Just like all others that have replied to this thread (which I also asked in Joe's forum) the bottom line is "I haven't done it myself but I know this guy... and here's the reason I don't think it'll work".

For 15 years now I keep hearing FF is the way to go... get with the times, etc, etc. But what I've seen over those 15 years was the original lever action bow company...Oneida... all but destroying itself with the Stealth and Discovery... Firebrand coming and going in the blink of an eye... a video of some guy repeatedly drawing back an Extreme with what's claimed to be all synthetic cables but never showing what's happening at the target... or "I don't know for sure but my neighbor"...

I have seen some stupidly nice bows done up with FF material for cabling... but beyond those pretty pictures there has never been a peep of how it all worked out.

Point here is... every company that has messed with FF and lever action bows, however briefly, has tanked... no home hobbyist has ever (as far as I can tell) made a follow up outlining just how great the outcome was.

I love orange juice... but I can't make it from apples.

Gerry
 

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FF on oneida is a great idea but the cables wore out quick and most that had it done changed it back to an original steel cable setup. The cables made out of FF just don't want to hold well which causes tuning problems and so on. It can be done and some enjoy but its best to just use the steel cables.
 

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Well I own 2 5150 bows one conspiracy and one resurrection. One I made a set of bcy x cables for and the other with the stock cables. Both are set and forget other than the normal Oneida issues like banging a outer limb and making the timing go out of whack. I don't believe that retro fitting the old cam system is the right idea. The stealth style cam is a lot better suited to a "fast flight" cable. The real change I would love to see is to the cam profile and how the cables, cam and outer limb connect to each other.
 

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The real change I would love to see is to the cam profile and how the cables, cam and outer limb connect to each other.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about the Oneida or your 5150 bows ?
 

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Both I guess. I own a stealth and I think it the best thing Oneida never did. Don't get me wrong I love the k cam but I think there are only so may things they can do with riser geometries and limb configuration to improve speed and sound ( though I would love to see a super pre loaded or center pivot limb set up on an Oneida). I mean I could be wrong and may be its all been tried in the past and didn't work but I want these companies to keep growing and I have a bad feeling that if we don't see some change soon they might not last and the I'm stuck to buying used bows that cost more than new "normal" compounds do
 

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I feel that with today's string materials and a good string maker keeping the bow in tune shouldn't be an issue. If there was some sring stretch I would remove them and put them on a jig that would measure the tension at a specific length. For example hooking up a digital scale to the string, stretching it on a jig and giving a twist or two until the cables read the same lb at the same length.

I don't feel that the reasons other companies didn't survive was because of FF. I think CP never did it because of more or less money. Cheaper for for them to make the cables in house than to source out strings. Cp never really seemed to want to improve on the bow, he got it to where he was comfortable with his product and just increased the prices.Just look at what he did which the limb cups going to plastic and not giving a full set of mods with a purchase of a bow. Cables are cheaper and easier to manufacture and that's why they are used.

I agree that retro fitting strings to the steel cabled cams of the Oneida is not the way to go. And I feel that FF would be easier on the bow and quiter because of its elastic stretch giving a softer shot. People make a fuss about FF stretching on the cams and causing tunning issues but your bows string also can stretch does that mean u should shoot with a steel cable ..... F#@k no, u give it a twist or two to re-tune (tiller) It's all about your quality of material and how good you String maker is.

I never shot a Lever bow with FF but I would give it a whirl before bashing it. I really feel that if done properly it would be a nicer, quieter shooting bow and you would get way more shots out of it than the steel power cables. Just my two cents
 

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Brad canton... I agree with you on the cam profile it's really gone as far as it can go the only way to make it faster would be to reduce weight of the cams, reduce friction on the timing cable like Joe has on his Bows and adding a beefier hinge with bearings would definitely help I had to replace a hinge that was bent and file down the other because of it and the pin being slightly bent causing to much friction. Also having beefier hinges could allow the power cables to be connectted on the end instead if going over the power limb hinge causing the that friction on the bend and prolonging cable life.

What do mean by center pivoting limb setup? would a more pre loaded limb with more deflection capture more energy to cams making it faster?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Wow... lots of comments over the last few days.

Kentucky... Spent a bit of time here over the last couple of hours looking for who the person you reference was as the name meant nothing to me... what drama. Couple hours of my life I'll sadly never get back. As much as I'd like to delve into things further there isn't any point is there? Always going to be a "he said, she said" type of thing...lets hook the cables this way instead of that way and call it a brand new invention. I do agree with you that lever actions are a niche market, never going to set the world on fire. Unlike you though I don't see the new owners doing great things. I suspect "the knockoffs" will continue going on... tortoise and the hare kind of thing. Btw... the thinly veiled insult of "forgotten more about lever bows they you or most will ever know"... spare me. I had a feeling once, but it died of loneliness

Oneidaextreme... your thoughts on the hinge and power cables improvements are great ideas... really great ideas. Prompted me to contact Joe and let him know that perhaps it's time to post a picture or two before he's accused of stealing the idea. Almost anyone can come up with a cad drawing in short order... rather difficult to come up with a real prototype in just one day though...

http://www.oneidabows.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=7600

I would like to thank all those that provided thoughts/answers to my original question. When I first posed the question I had no idea just how much history/drama there was behind it all... thank you once again kentuckyshooter for the education.

Gerry
 

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Well I own 2 5150 bows one conspiracy and one resurrection. One I made a set of bcy x cables for and the other with the stock cables. Both are set and forget
I have owned a 5150 Invasion for about 2 years. Agree with Brad. Have not had any problems keeping my Invasion tuned or in time. Based upon my experience, this set up doesn't place any more stress or wear & tear on the string and cables than any other modern compound bow does.
 

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Gerry I don't think that answers are going to be answered as far as people who have done FF to Oneida's go. It's obvious that the conversion didn't work out or we would here more about them. But for the Bows that were built for FF it seems that they haven't had much of an issue. I on the other hand would like to hear more about this and how the FF Bows draw and feel when shot. But like you could do without the subtle douchey comments of people stealing and or copying ideas.
 

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Nothing subtle about it. And kentuck, wasn't your Oneida guru Mike Day part owner of one of those supposed knock off companies, "Monster bows" you hope will go away? Nice neighbor. Wish we could just stay on topic for once.
 

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Nothing subtle about it. And kentuck, wasn't your Oneida guru Mike Day part owner of one of those supposed knock off companies, "Monster bows" you hope will go away? Nice neighbor. Wish we could just stay on topic for once.
he wasnt the owner . but he did work hard to promote the design and I have not spoke to him in a long time since I moved but I know he was glad to be done with it all. I think my black eagle was the last bow he worked on and he did make it better and I enjoy shooting it but its not my primary go to.
 

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CPOneiida made great bows and JP will make them even better.
As a small custom lever action bow builder I have plenty of work and if anyone were to look they would see I
promote/support Oneida eagle bows to everyone on every internet account I have and other places.
Oneida bows are the best production bow ever produced imho.
Others may have different preferences and that's great shoot what you like I do.
I have allways let the bows sell themselves for the qualities they have.
They may not be for everyone and that's ok. There will be plenty of shooters that like what qualities each and every bow has.
I also have supported shooters who needed assistance with monster bows and 5150 bows.
I prefer steel cabling over fast flight for my own reasons but still help others that have fast flight when ever I can.
Anyone interested in what I have said here can check here on AT,BFC,FB and over to the American Eagle Bows forum.
I personally own several Oneida bows and will own more some day.
Shoot Straight and Shoot What You Like I do.

And don't forget to check out Jp's new Oneida Eagle Bows @ www.oneidaeaglebows.com

Joe
 

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Kentucky what the hell is your deal. You talk up monster Bows but when someone mentions AE you do nothing but bad mouth AE in this post and others calling AE a copy cat company and wishing them to basically go belly up. Joe has done nothing but help Oneida shooters by improving on the cheap Oneida parts and more... He has done more for Oneida shooters than Oneida has.

You'll use a monster (copy cat) product on your Oneida. But not AE's because ? If Oneida is the original than Monster, AE, Firebrand, Area 5150 and so on are all copy cats but you only seem to have an issue with AE.

You must be real jealous of Joe and his accomplishments. I'm sorry you feel that way, jealousy is a real b#&ch! You remind me of an ex girlfriend of mine that had to see a counselor because of her jealousy issues. The counceler had recommended her to place a rubber band around her wrist and snap her self when she had a bad thought to keep her from those thoughts. If you pm me I will gladly mail you some rubber bands... free shipping.

And before you start calling me a Joe fan boy know this... I own an Oneida not a AE, Monster, Firebrand, or 5150 but what I am is a lever action fanboy.

The lever action community gets enough scrutiny that we don't need it with in the group. Conversations and debate's are great...fast flight, steel cables, cams, no cams what not that's how people learn and improve their bows, shoot what you enjoy to shoot and respect what other enjoy to shoot. It can and should be done without the low blows and if you can't help go away and be sad somewhere else.

Everyone else sorry I got off topic and stooped down to the haters level.
 
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