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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys -

I posted this a little while ago.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2142805

For those of us who teach new shooters on a regular basis, we see the effects of even a little over-bowing.
Best case scenario, it slows down the learning curve, worse case, it leads to bad habits that can be a bear to break later on and in rare cases, injury.

Let's give it another go, eh?

Viper1 out.
 

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That was an interesting link. I have shot compounds in the 60-75# range for 30+ years before selling everything and dedicating all my efforts into traditional shooting. 2 years ago I bought a Pinnacle riser and 40# limbs. I figured 40# wouldn't be that bad. At my draw length I was holding 49#. It didn't take long to figure out I was over bowed. I went down to 30# limbs but still holding 39-40# after awhile took its toll. Still unable to find the consistency and accuracey I was looking for.

A few weeks ago I received a set of CV Border limbs in the XL length. These were made to 32# at my DL. I am anxious to shoot with this lower poundage to see if a 7-8# drop in weight will make a noticeable difference
 

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Even Howard Hill said that over bowing is the number one problem for archers. I'd say the only question is how heavy is over bowed (which will very from person to person), not whether it is an issue or not. And it is safer to err on the lighter side rather than the heavier side.

And I'd note something else, too, which is that people who shoot only once a week will not develop strength from doing archery - you have to work out more than that per week to develop strength. Casual shooters need to buy a bow that they can comfortably shoot as is, right now, because they aren't going to "grow into it".
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
WB -

Good point about the more "casual" shooters.
The once a week guys or gals will not strengthen the "archery muscles" as quickly, as the ones who shoot more often. Once of cases where the weight lifting analogy holds.

These days my Oly to trad student ratio is over 9:1.
Still, the ones who seem to develop faster (increased accuracy, endurance AND strength), and the ones who start off lower.
The actual range of effective starting weight is narrow than most folks think.

Jeff -

When we worked together, you were of the few trad guys who I didn't think was over-bowed.
The bow arm was another was another story!

The lighter limbs should be interesting.
I'd be curious to hear about your INITIAL response to the weight difference.
We can discuss why later, if you like.

Viper1 out.
 

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I would chime in with a 'Yep'.

Starting heavy definitely ******ed me. Starting with the wrong arrows definitely didn't help. I ingrained a collapse to try to compensate for overly stiff. Starting without any real instruction other than 'anchor at the corner of the mouth and look at the place you want to hit' wasn't of much benefit either.
 

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Does it matter what kind of shooting you're doing?

While I wait for my new 42# bow (I've been shooting 45# for the last year), I've been shooting an old 55# bow. I wouldn't bother trying to shoot a 60 arrow 300 round but I can kill my beer can target a few times in a row without too much trouble. The bow is too heavy after several shots but I only need one so I'm going hunting.

Actually, I'm kind of sorry I let the bow sit mostly unused for the last year. It may not be the bow I grab first for an all day shooting session but, going forward, I think I'm going to keep my hand in with it.
 

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look at the place you want to hit' wasn't of much benefit either.
Burn a hole with your eyes, BarneySlayer, burn a hole!!! :D (That would work better for me if I had Laser Eyes or something...)

For a lot of people, including me, cost is an issue. We want to buy our bow perfect the first time. They are expensive and I didn't ever expect to own more than one. And perfect to me meant the poundage I thought would be a good final draw weight. So buying a "training" bow just never entered into it. And I totally understand the push back on buying a light draw weight bow. For people who are fortunate enough to find one, this is what a good archery program for adults can provide, rentals to use to learn archery, so you can buy the weight you need later.

When I got into archery my buddies all bought 55 to 65 pound trad bows. We were all shooting target and casual field archery. Nobody actually needed a 60 pound bow. I bought a 40 pounder. Now only two of us still shoot. With one exception the other guys can barely pull back their bows, which are all hanging on walls, sitting in closets and what not.
 

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Started at 50#s and consistency of shot and accuracy, as seen on the target, were going no where. Got some 30# limbs and quickly started to make progress.

Now a shooting session is typically done with three bows. A right hand 41# bow, a left hand 34# bow, and if I want to shoot a lot, a 29# right hand bow. Working for me so far.
 

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Even Howard Hill said that over bowing is the number one problem for archers. I'd say the only question is how heavy is over bowed (which will very from person to person), not whether it is an issue or not. And it is safer to err on the lighter side rather than the heavier side.

And I'd note something else, too, which is that people who shoot only once a week will not develop strength from doing archery - you have to work out more than that per week to develop strength. Casual shooters need to buy a bow that they can comfortably shoot as is, right now, because they aren't going to "grow into it".
:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:
 

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As someone (sorry forgot who) stated "Archery is a finesse sport, not weight lifting..." Light bow, lighter arrows and you can really have a lot of fun. When hunting season rolls around, use what you learned on your light bow with your 'hunting weight bow' for the 'few' shots that get taken a game each year.
 

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:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:
Say, Ray, my physiology knowledge is a bit old. What can you tell us about strength development as it pertains to archery?
 

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If you have a draw weight that you can shoot all day long (so to speak) with domination, control, finesse, and accuracy - minus the straining and fatigue - then you also have the ability to realize when you are either over or under bowed. Some time back, I termed this all-day bow the "BBB", or "Baseline Biological Bow" ... a bow that is biologically matched to your existing musculature, functioning as an adjunct appendage for natural, optimum, and repetitive performance ... the bow you were born with, in a manner of speaking.

Deliberately incorporating a heavier bow weight than the BBB, as MGF mentions above, can be utilized within its own milieu for specific archery needs. Hunting is an example of this. A practiced regimen with a heavier bow (if desired) in order to hunt allows the archer to perform their hunt with efficiency and confidence. The practice sessions with a heavier bow may not follow the same patterns as with the BBB, but can be adjusted accordingly.

Deliberately incorporating a lighter bow weight than the BBB can be used for minimally-resistive form study in order to experiment and make effortless adjustments in form elements that can then be embedded into muscle memory for transference to the other weights the archer shoots.

I would separate being "over-bowed" from a "deliberate and practiced heavier bow" in this conversation, for they are not the same. "Over-bowed" implies a draw weight that is heavier than can be controlled for whatever purpose. A "deliberate and practiced heavier bow" implies a bow that is being properly and accurately pressed into service for a specific need.

We can tote grocery bags about all day long, but often we can properly move furniture without banging through the doorways, as well. The trick is to recognize when lifting one side of a piano is either a clever thing to do, or perhaps better left to another set of muscles.
 

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Thin man, that makes a lot of sense. Sounds logical to me! Especially the grocery bags > furniture > piano analogy!
 

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As someone (sorry forgot who) stated "Archery is a finesse sport, not weight lifting..." Light bow, lighter arrows and you can really have a lot of fun.
I'm having a lot more fun going lighter. In fact, I just ordered my first custom bow and I took it down yet another 5 lbs.
 

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Lately I've been shooting 45#. I can control this, but I do not dominate this weight. Problem I have is shooting wood arrows , which are heavy and a just under 29" DL, cant go too much lighter for risk of too little arrow speed. That all being said, I have shot and feel I can dominate 40-42#, from an anchor and hold standpoint. Some of it is bow design and how smoothly the bow draws and a perceived let off if the bow is not stacking and gaining 3 to 4# an inch at the end of the draw.

Viper, you brought up an interesting point about being over bowed and bow arm control. I have shot upwards of 65# and had no difficulty drawing and anchoring, but could not control the bow arm. This is an affliction that i continually struggle with, even at lighter weights. I have noticed much better bow arm control with a heavy mass riser. But perhaps that is an issue for another thread. Overbowed can mean different things for different shooters.
 

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If you have a draw weight that you can shoot all day long (so to speak) with domination, control, finesse, and accuracy - minus the straining and fatigue - then you also have the ability to realize when you are either over or under bowed. Some time back, I termed this all-day bow the "BBB", or "Baseline Biological Bow" ... a bow that is biologically matched to your existing musculature, functioning as an adjunct appendage for natural, optimum, and repetitive performance ... the bow you were born with, in a manner of speaking.

Deliberately incorporating a heavier bow weight than the BBB, as MGF mentions above, can be utilized within its own milieu for specific archery needs. Hunting is an example of this. A practiced regimen with a heavier bow (if desired) in order to hunt allows the archer to perform their hunt with efficiency and confidence. The practice sessions with a heavier bow may not follow the same patterns as with the BBB, but can be adjusted accordingly.

Deliberately incorporating a lighter bow weight than the BBB can be used for minimally-resistive form study in order to experiment and make effortless adjustments in form elements that can then be embedded into muscle memory for transference to the other weights the archer shoots.

I would separate being "over-bowed" from a "deliberate and practiced heavier bow" in this conversation, for they are not the same. "Over-bowed" implies a draw weight that is heavier than can be controlled for whatever purpose. A "deliberate and practiced heavier bow" implies a bow that is being properly and accurately pressed into service for a specific need.

We can tote grocery bags about all day long, but often we can properly move furniture without banging through the doorways, as well. The trick is to recognize when lifting one side of a piano is either a clever thing to do, or perhaps better left to another set of muscles.
Good points.
 

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That was an interesting link. I have shot compounds in the 60-75# range for 30+ years before selling everything and dedicating all my efforts into traditional shooting. 2 years ago I bought a Pinnacle riser and 40# limbs. I figured 40# wouldn't be that bad. At my draw length I was holding 49#. It didn't take long to figure out I was over bowed. I went down to 30# limbs but still holding 39-40# after awhile took its toll. Still unable to find the consistency and accuracey I was looking for.

A few weeks ago I received a set of CV Border limbs in the XL length. These were made to 32# at my DL. I am anxious to shoot with this lower poundage to see if a 7-8# drop in weight will make a noticeable difference

I bet you don't go poking at a big ol' bull moose with that new toy though.:wink:

Jeffro, forgive me if I missed some posts about a medical condition of some kind which requires you to keep lowering your bow weight. I know nothing about you except that I 'think' I remember from previous posts that you're a pretty serious hunter. As you know there is a limit to how low you can go and still be effective on animals. It just seems that you should have been ok with 40lbs or so at your draw length.
 

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Guys -

I posted this a little while ago.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2142805

For those of us who teach new shooters on a regular basis, we see the effects of even a little over-bowing.
Best case scenario, it slows down the learning curve, worse case, it leads to bad habits that can be a bear to break later on and in rare cases, injury.

Let's give it another go, eh?

Viper1 out.

Ok, lets give it another go. Since you seem to want to keep picking at this sore, I feel compelled to point out AGAIN that these things are relative and have different meaning to different people. The term 'over bowing' itself is relative. It's an apples and oranges comparison. I don't teach many new shooters on a regular basis like you do but more than likely the people I see are grown men who find a thirty pound bow a total waste of time. Children are a different story and my eight year old grandson, who is an exception, is comfortable with a thirty pound bow with a fairly short draw length. I also have four sons who could tie that thirty pound bow in a knot and throw it at a deer with enough force to knock him down. So you see, it's all relative and each individual is different.
 

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It might be 30 lbs, it might be 70 lbs and in that you're correct that it's relative. Still, overbowed is overbowed at whatever poundage that might be.
 

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I don't teach many new shooters on a regular basis like you do but more than likely the people I see are grown men who find a thirty pound bow a total waste of time.
I teach plenty of grown men, and plenty of them can't even consistently hold a 30# bow back consistently with good alignment. A light draw weight bow isn't just for shooting, it gives a coach the ability to have the student hold the bow back at full draw comfortably while the coach positions the student into good alignment. You just can't do that with someone using a heavy bow they have to snap shoot.

Your idea of "total waste of time" and mine are very different. And calling a post advocating for common archery teaching methods "picking at this sore" is a way of bringing a productive and polite thread down into one that is less so.
 
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