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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I went to a couple of local field competitions last weekend and I really struggled shooting downhill on some deep angles. Even though distances on these targets were about 10m the angles were very difficult for me and couldn't find a proper posture to stop my pin from jumping all over the target. So today I went to our new training field and set up a simulation of deep downhill shots. After several tries I seem to find a more or less stable posture, how does that look?

7404587


7404588


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I tried to keep my shoulders line straight, bend in my waist (well I don't have one but still), move my hips back slightly..

And 2 questions I can't find easy answers to:

1. I feel that I have to bend my head more to touch the string with my nose compared to shooting straight. And the string goes slightly above corner of my mouthso I think I anchor higher than usual. Is that OK for downhill shot or I should try anchoring lower?

2. I feel that I can leave the bow kinda hang freely, just slightly supporting it with my bow hand, gently guide it to the X ring. Should I do that or I should keep pushing the bow as usual though it feels weird with that angle of shooting?

Thanks to everyone for comments!
 

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Lowered expectations
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Best way to analyze is to take pictures of your form when shooting level, and then compare your upper body alignment between that and the downhill pics. Same for uphill shots, by the way.

How do you draw on the downhills? Some people draw level, then rotate down (or up) while maintaining their alignment. Seems to work for them. If you feel something different in your downhill draw/anchor, maybe try that.
 

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Socket Man
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Well, to me you should not have put the front foot on the lower step. When I am shooting downhill shots we are usually on a flat platform and you have to lean out over a hip high rail. Or we are on some kind of poor footing where the feet are just a few inches different but we have to lean down hill. I have never seen a shot where we had one foot on one step and the other foot on a different step.
 

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Socket Man
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Secondly, I realize that you are shooting a specific downhill shot but I am seeing many different shooting form issues that if they exist in your normal stance on level ground we have some work to do.

1. Grip

2. Front elbow

3. Head

4. Anchor
 

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Socket Man
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1. Grip, your grip is very deep and I believe the handle of the bow is on top of the love line area. Also from that angle I think it has knuckles that are more vertical than at the 45 degree angle.

2. Front elbow, Just looking at it my first impression was that you are hyperextended but the more I look I can not tell, it almost looks like your elbow is bent but your elbow is so extremely straight out to the side that it looks hyperextended when it isn't. This one has me confused. But I can tell you the front elbow is not at the desired 45 degree angle.

3. Head, your head is looking to straight at the target. The only people who should do this wear glasses. The rest of us do better by turning the head to the right as far as possible.

4. anchor, You are digging into your cheek really hard. This causes point of impact issues and is being caused by your forward facing head.

5. I believe your release is being overly clinched with the release deep on top of your knuckles. I would suggest working on a j hook grip where you get the release on the second bone in your finger with it flat to the target so the release is setting on a flat surface. the release edge should be touching the knuckle but not deep into it.
 

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Socket Man
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Overall, I don't think you need to change your draw length. But right now you are overly forcing the bow towards the target by extending yourself in that direction.

So, to fix this issue and not need to change your draw length it is going to come down to a couple major things being done at the same time. Because each one of them done by themselves would not allow you to use this same draw length. Firs is your shoulders, right now they are pretty much in line with the front arm and parallel to the arrow. I need you to open your front shoulder around 4 or so inches to the left so that your front arm comes over to the bow at a angle. Now this is going to allow the bow to come back to you and if we didn't do the second part you would need to shorten the draw length. but the second thing is to rotate your head to the right, this moves your cheek and corner of your mouth to the rear and offsets the new open shoulders. I can not guarantee you that your draw length won't need to change but you may get lucky.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
1. Grip, your grip is very deep and I believe the handle of the bow is on top of the love line area. Also from that angle I think it has knuckles that are more vertical than at the 45 degree angle.

2. Front elbow, Just looking at it my first impression was that you are hyperextended but the more I look I can not tell, it almost looks like your elbow is bent but your elbow is so extremely straight out to the side that it looks hyperextended when it isn't. This one has me confused. But I can tell you the front elbow is not at the desired 45 degree angle.

3. Head, your head is looking to straight at the target. The only people who should do this wear glasses. The rest of us do better by turning the head to the right as far as possible.

4. anchor, You are digging into your cheek really hard. This causes point of impact issues and is being caused by your forward facing head.

5. I believe your release is being overly clinched with the release deep on top of your knuckles. I would suggest working on a j hook grip where you get the release on the second bone in your finger with it flat to the target so the release is setting on a flat surface. the release edge should be touching the knuckle but not deep into it.
1. I'll take a picture of my grip line on my palm tomorrow, it's nowhere near the love line.

2. Hyperextended, not going to try to fix that. Elbow rotation - I know I should rotate it more, slowly working on that, it's very difficult for me, but it's getting better month by month.

3. I have no idea how to control the angle of head turn unless it's almost straight. The more I turn it the more consistent my shots are actually, so...

4. No idea how to fix that.

5. I am using the middle of 2nd bones on all fingers but pinky j-hooking it exactly like you are described it.. and I see that on my picture? I'll take a separate photo tomorrow.
 

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Socket Man
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Having a hyper extended elbow that is locked in max hyper extension is no different than a normal elbow that is locked out. If it is locked out all you do it simply unlock it, I am not asking you to bend the elbow just unlock it.

When jesse and chance and levi all unlock their front elbow it looks like they have a pretty bent front arm. For a guy like you unlocking it will make you look like you have a straight arm that is not unlocked.

but

Here is what I need you to feel, stand there with no bow and get into your shooting position and lock out your front arm like normal and you are going to feel a lot of muscle tension in a variety of places such as the forearm and shoulder area. Then unlock the elbow and it is going to vanish.

Now do the exact same thing with that locked front elbow and make your shoulders perfectly in line with your front arm and turn your head so you are looking straight over your shoulder and you are going to feel even more freaking muscle tension.

Now open your front shoulder to the left about 4 or so inches and get into the shooting position and unlock your front elbow and you are going to feel it all vanish and you will have little to no muscle tension. In fact the moment you put your front elbow to the 45 degree angle it should all vanish.
 

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Socket Man
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You can then turn the front elbow straight to the ground and feel the muscle tension and turn the elbow straight out to the side and feel muscle tension and the shoulder muscles will roll over to the top of the shoulder. The 45 degree front elbow is so important.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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I went to a couple of local field competitions last weekend and I really struggled shooting downhill on some deep angles. Even though distances on these targets were about 10m the angles were very difficult for me and couldn't find a proper posture to stop my pin from jumping all over the target. So today I went to our new training field and set up a simulation of deep downhill shots. After several tries I seem to find a more or less stable posture, how does that look?

View attachment 7404587





I tried to keep my shoulders line straight, bend in my waist (well I don't have one but still), move my hips back slightly..

And 2 questions I can't find easy answers to:

1. I feel that I have to bend my head more to touch the string with my nose compared to shooting straight. And the string goes slightly above corner of my mouthso I think I anchor higher than usual. Is that OK for downhill shot or I should try anchoring lower?

2. I feel that I can leave the bow kinda hang freely, just slightly supporting it with my bow hand, gently guide it to the X ring. Should I do that or I should keep pushing the bow as usual though it feels weird with that angle of shooting?

Thanks to everyone for comments!
You are correct. Since you "FEEL" like you have to bend your head (you are dropping your chin down too much),
you get the FEELING that something is off, and you are correct. You are not TECHNICALLY anchoring higher,
you are SHOVING your chin down LOWER into your left collar bone, so the nock rides HIGHER than normal.

Small distinction, but the root cause is you have a STEEP downhill shot,
and your feet/ankles are OUT of POSITION, for such a steep downhill shot.

So, to compensate for the OUT of POSITION right ankle, you are more upright (upper third of backbone) than ideal,
so you also compensate by SHOVING your chin too low, so you FEEL that your nock is riding too high,
and you are correct.

Your right elbow is a little low, as well. So, the FIX is to lean MORE into the shot.
But, u say....if I try and LEAN anymore, I'ma gonna roll down the stairs.

Yes, you cannot LEAN more into the shot, with your CURRENT right ankle position.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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RAzZin.

Double Jointed elbow. Not that simple to just tell someone with a double jointed elbow to simply "unlock it".
Doesn't work that way.

I have much more basic comments, work with the fundamentals FIRST. The major stuff, and then, work on the less major stuff.

Your feet, specifically the right ankle. Need the right ankle to slide back, away from the left ankle.
Want you to try and straighten out the right knee, so you can swing the hips farther away from your left ankle.

WHY?
So you can lean more towards the target. How much more? Bout this much, so you can lift your chin up
and get back to your more "normal" anchor, even though this is a CRAZY steep downhill shot.

7404671


7404673


7404674
 

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Try drawing level not down hill, then simply bend at the waist with out changing anything else.. From what I see your not bending properly. If you don't EVERYTHING changes in your form and execution of the shot.
 

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The Impartial Archer
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Try drawing level not down hill, then simply bend at the waist with out changing anything else.. From what I see your not bending properly. If you don't EVERYTHING changes in your form and execution of the shot.
That's what I try to do as well. If I'm hunting sometimes that can be too much movement and I shoot like the OP.......then I aim low because you'll shoot higher dropping that bow arm. I played around with this a lot from a treestand.

It's good (IMO) to be able to do both. If your 25 ft up and a deer is at 7 yards it's HARD to bend at the waist............lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
RAzZin.

Double Jointed elbow. Not that simple to just tell someone with a double jointed elbow to simply "unlock it".
Doesn't work that way.

I have much more basic comments, work with the fundamentals FIRST. The major stuff, and then, work on the less major stuff.

Your feet, specifically the right ankle. Need the right ankle to slide back, away from the left ankle.
Want you to try and straighten out the right knee, so you can swing the hips farther away from your left ankle.

WHY?
So you can lean more towards the target. How much more? Bout this much, so you can lift your chin up
and get back to your more "normal" anchor, even though this is a CRAZY steep downhill shot.
I'll try doing that, thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
1. Grip, your grip is very deep and I believe the handle of the bow is on top of the love line area. Also from that angle I think it has knuckles that are more vertical than at the 45 degree angle.

2. Front elbow, Just looking at it my first impression was that you are hyperextended but the more I look I can not tell, it almost looks like your elbow is bent but your elbow is so extremely straight out to the side that it looks hyperextended when it isn't. This one has me confused. But I can tell you the front elbow is not at the desired 45 degree angle.

3. Head, your head is looking to straight at the target. The only people who should do this wear glasses. The rest of us do better by turning the head to the right as far as possible.

4. anchor, You are digging into your cheek really hard. This causes point of impact issues and is being caused by your forward facing head.

5. I believe your release is being overly clinched with the release deep on top of your knuckles. I would suggest working on a j hook grip where you get the release on the second bone in your finger with it flat to the target so the release is setting on a flat surface. the release edge should be touching the knuckle but not deep into it.
So, that's my grip mark after ~2 hours of shooting:

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That's after Prime Nexus with rather wide grip, on my Mathews with side plates the mark will be narrower.

And I hold my release like that:

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Socket Man
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I was thinking about downhill shots once I got to school this morning and saw your thread, to me they totally suck because of the extreme angles they put us in. But I have shot them for years in competition and I do score well on them because of a few things.

1. Follow through: When I am going to shoot a downhill shot I mentally accept that I am going to feel horrible at full draw, I shift my entire focus on the follow through being straight at the 12 ring. I let my execution go into autopilot and just do its thing more than usual so I can super focus on that follow through.

2. Back tension preload: This is before my execution but the horrible angle I am going to put my body into sucks but I want to squeeze into the wall and feel my normal amount of preload so that at least I feel normal before I start in this area.

3. Torque indicator: I can not tell you how important this is, I have watched other guys in my group who are strong shooters group 3 or more inches off to the left or right and my arrow is the only one that hits dead on perfect. When I draw back and settle into the shot as I look through the peep I can see my torque indicator through the peep and it will be twisted from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch off to the side telling me that I am totally screwed. I will let down and reset my brain to twist the hell out of my riser on the next shot, Why? Because my body is lieing to me in the pizz poor stance that I feel good when in all reality my poor down hill shot form is twisting the hell out of the riser. So I draw back twisting the hell out of my bow so that my torque indicator is perfect and I make a sweet shot.

4. 3rd axis: On these shots are where the correct 3rd axis method actually makes a difference, if you are not doing it at full draw with a plumb line this is something that could be messing with your point of impact.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Both look really good. Nothing better than some good confirmation that you are doing it correct.
I can move my grip closer to thumb but it's very unstable, doubt I should do that..

I've also opened my shoulders and stance today (while shooting straight, usual 50m range) and reduced head turn like you said - mixed feelings, shots are either very good, a lot of 10 rings caught or very bad, going to left part of target to 6-7 rings. I can't get if I torque the bow badly from time to time or somehow push hard to the left side.. Anyway it's worth to spend a few weeks and see the result after several thousands shots are made, thank you for advise.
 
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