At 10x the price, are the Bear and Hoyt 10x as nice? Do they fly arrows faster, straighter, have a smoother pull?

The answer is "it depends". When you're talking about ILF risers you have limbs that will be inferior to those on the Black Hunter, and those far superior. But the Black Hunter is very good bang for buck. You can spend 5x the price on a taledown or single piece and not have a bow with the torque forgiveness, performance and point-and-shootability of the BH, off the shelf.

If eager for a change, I would upgrade to explore the world of high performance and finely tunable ILF or just to have a pretty single piece or takedown. ILF is definitely worth a look, a prototyping environment to put together a bow built for you, your anatomy, and the way you shoot.

 

I started with Galaxy Sage. It was all i needed. I upgraded to heavier limbs to hunt with. Again, all i needed. Found a deal on new super grizz. Shoots pretty much the same to me. Other than the 2” shorter grizz being a tad easier to maneuver in a treestand i couldnt tell a difference shooting wise.
the grizz is lighter so that helps.
my dream is a timberghost recurve. Just a fine looking bow. I do believe as in all things, you get what you pay for. So the craftsmanship will probably be alot better and attention to detail.
I just said this in a another thread comparing releases. Shoot a 100 thumb release then shoot a carter or stan. You get what you pay for.
an hr single shot 308 will kill a deer, and so will a christensen rifle. Which one do you think was built better?

 

Only 3 questions to ask yourself about deciding if a bow is “better” than the one you have. One objective, two subjective.

Are you more accurate with it?

Do you LIKE it more?

Is the amount it’s more accurate and more pleasant to shoot and/or look at worth the extra cost to you?

 

I like to compare them to cars, because almost everyone has some experience. Have you ever got into and closed the door on a Ford Fiesta or a Chevrolet Chevette. The door closes with a tinny sound and feels like it might weigh fifteen pounds or so. Then you go over and get into a Ford Crown Victoria. The door feels like it weighs forty or fifty pounds and closes with a solid thud. The Crown Vic has a much better ride, too. Same with cheap bows and quality bows. Those cheap bows will shoot an arrow and usually have some consistency, but the quality bow will do the same along with a feel that doesn't rattle your bones. That is assuming that you chose correctly, got the right fit, and didn't have it built out of some low-density wood.

 

But…the Fiesta and the Crown Victoria both get you to the grocery store in the same amount of time, and with the Fiesta you have a LOT more money to spend once you get there. 🙂

 

Cheap == poor quality was once a rule worth its words. Not so for archery in the 2020's - esp in the ILF space. I've got some cheap (inexpensive) archery gear that feels like high end quality kit, is very finely made, and shoots as well too.

A good time to have a few hundred spare and an open mind.

 

Just because its "premium" does not always translate as better, in other words just because it was expensive....... sometimes very expensive, won't automatically be a performer.

You can spend 25% of what you would on a custom, on some tidy (budget friendly) ILF stuff and get way better performance and choice.

Or spend lots on high end ILF stuff, primo limbs and long, heavy risers and have most everything else feel nasty afterwards. Or never go there and never have that problem.

 

You are asking a very specific question: difference between Southwest Spider and Black Hunter vs Hoyt Satori or Bear T/D. I had / have all of them and you don’t get the 10x the price in performance. Even if people are in love with Black Hunter I didn’t like it that much. It’s an OK bow at 60” AMO, but I had to clean / shape the tips of the limbs and in the end I gave it away. With the Southwest Spider - another version of Samick Sage - I had a riser failure, it broke at full draw. All this bow vs bow it’s personal. If you can afford the price buy and try. Or go out, meet people and try their bows. The low price comes with corner cuts in wood quality used for risers and sometimes it blows in your face. Can you shoot the same a $100 and a $1000 bow? Sure! It’s not just this though.

 

I agree that the biggest bang for the buck can be found in the ILF world. The entry level price point is still going to be four or five times that of the Black Hunter or Sage if you intend to buy a bow that will have some resale value. Factory defects aside, the lack of bow length adjustment makes the Black Hunter a non-starter for many archers with long draw lengths. I can live with a 60" bow for a few weeks a year (for hunting) but there is no way I'm picking it up in the off season. Many of these new guys are going to limited to one bow for a while. They may as well get one that fits their draw length.

 

ILF is a complete shooting system, with complete customization. Multiple riser lengths and multiple limbs lengths and even bow styles. You can use ILF longbow limbs if you want. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Samick Sage. They are great bows if they fit you. You may out grow it. You will never outgrow a ILF system.

 

Plenty of decent used ILF riser and limb combos to be had that would be less than 300$ total and give you really really solid performance. I just put together a 58" bow to play with out of a saddle. Used 15" riser from ETAR for 30$, Used SF carbon Foam limbs from here for 100$, and 15$ for a string. Had the springy rest already. So for less than 150$ this bow shoots as good (or better) as my 1k+$ wood bows and is respectable against my higher end ILF stuff.

 

Not understanding how the budget takedowns are any less tunable or customizable compared to an ILF system? The Spyder/Sage has swappable limbs lengths of 60-64", and draw weights of 25-60lbs.

 

Adjustable tiller is a big one, next are diverse limb options, with lateral limb adjustment to iron out kinks. Plunger hole for adjustable sideplate or actual plunger, makes tuning a lot easier (though I prefer off the shelf), differing grip options on the metal ILF risers.

ILF allows you to shape the bow to fit you, whereas with a TD or singlepiece (both of which I own and cherish also) you fit yourself to the bow. My metal ILF with carbon and glass limbs is by far the bow I am most accurate with, largely because I have tuned it around my anatomy and how I like to shoot, right down to a particular CNC machined walnut grip. As far as tools go, I could not want more.

Is it the bow I miss when away from home and feel most at peace with in the forest? No, that's a longbow.

No need to choose, have them all.

 

The cost difference is partially justified by the materials they are constructed from. The Spyder and Black Hunter risers are solid composite risers, whereas the Hoyt Satori is machined 6061-T6 aluminum, and being ILF offers more adjustability. The Bear riser is wood (black maple or bubinga) with a phenolic (resin/plastic) stripe. Is there quality difference in materials…yes. Do some of the more well known riser manufacturers charge a little extra to help pay for their advertising…you bet! My advice is try out as many bows as you can and see what feels comfortable for you to shoot, then buy the best you can afford. Most unsuccessful shots are caused by user error rather than equipment, so be sure to practice. Ours is a perishable skill set.

 

ILF has many more limb options.. wood/fiberglass .. carbon/foam .. longbow instead of recurve… short to xtra long limbs…and most ILF risers have lateral limbs adjustments built into the riser, the only thing you can adjust with the Spyder XL is draw with new limbs and minor length changes.

 

I used to own a Spyder. It is a nice bow. XL limbs make it a 64 bow, which you will want if your DL is over 29 inches. It is also tapped for modern accessories and is cut past center so it can be shoot off the shelf or off an arrow rest.
It also has a large sight window and has a range of limbs weights These are all great attributes.

But ILF offers much more limbs length and limbs constructed of other materials, which will perform better, smoother and faster, plus lateral limb adjustment on the riser and interchange grips.

 

I would put my small bow collection into three price categories. Budget, mid-price, and expensive.

Examples of my stuff,

Budget - Spyder XL, Black Hunter, Galaxy Black Ridge
Mid - Bodnik Slick Stick, Bodnik Hunter Recurve, Samick Discovery
Expensive - Toelke Whip, Hoyt Satori

I can honestly say I enjoy shooting them all equally.

In my opinion, the Discovery is better made than the Satori. Metal finish and grip quality specifically.

The Budget bows are just as much enjoyment, and shoot just as well. I tend to shoot heavy-ish arrows, and put string silencers on all of them, along with some velcro on the recurve limbs where the string touches. They all shoot well, with a nice 'thump' of a sound.

The Toelke is in a class by itself among my bows, it's just a magnificent piece, where modern design and function meet beauty, and craftsmanship. A lot of pride in ownership, and just handling and looking at it is a treat.

 

Some things to consider when looking at recurve is draw weight and draw length. So in my opinion you would be best served by a takedown bow.

Draw weight is a big concern because you want to be able to handle the bow and not have it handle you. So you need light weight limbs so you can learn proper form.

Shooting a recurve requires the ability to shoot lots of arrows. You can’t do this if you are overbowed.

Most recurve draw weight is measured at 28 inches. If you don’t draw to 28 inches, your limb weight will be 2 to 2.5 pounds less. Conversely if you draw over 28 inches, you will be 2 to 2.5 pounds heavier.

Your draw length might change. With a compound and D loop and a mechanical release I am a 28 inch draw. When I started shooting a recurve I was a 27 inch draw.

After learning to properly utilize back tension and proper form, with a draw weight I can handle my DL is 29 inches.

Buy a takedown bow with lightweight limbs, some properly spined arrows and start shooting. Leave your arrows full length for awhile and shoot for groups.

 

Get yourself a low price starter bows, there are plenty of great one to be had. It’s great to dream about better bows and you can even do research but things will change too much while staring out to make a good choice. Practice, watch videos, ask questions here and on TradTalk, you will start to build a good knowledge base to later on make an informed choice. I started with a Samick Sage for the first year. Don’t make the mistake of many and over bow from the start. 25-30# tops to learn good form. In your journey you will never outgrow a 30# set of practice limbs when you move on to heavier poundage.

 

My budget bows are Warf’s. I have a few Bear’s as well. But my pride and joy are my custom made bows. Why, because I picked the materials and had them made to my specs. Do they shoot any better than my Warf’s probably not but who cares ? I don’t.

 

I did learn about draw length and stacking on this forum so I bought a 64" Spyder XL for my 30" draw. I'm shooting off the shelf and have a lot of work to do on form consistency.

 

But you are probably having fun. Shooting a traditional bow is supposed to be fun. When it clicks and you start to get more consistent and more accurate it will be even more fun. More than fun it is rewarding. Nothing beat the feeling of ringing a bullseye with a recurve or longbow.

 

One of the things ILF lovers like is that they can be played with like construction toys, move this, change that etc. String walking requires such adjustments. Those imported takedowns while are designed well, do lot have much handwork in them. A couple have gone through here that had different tillers. I gave both away and re-tillered the funky one, it was like it had a weak lower limb, about four pounds. Then my old friend from out east. Bought one of the first Super Kodiaks, it was his only bow. Many years later he wanted a new bow, maybe one with a lighter pull, he looked at all that he could try. He came over and shot all of our bows, I rounded up about 30 at that time. He bought a 45 pound new Super Kodiak. didn't like the string it came with and asked me to make him two B50 strings.

 

Of all of the target based bows that I have owned, nothing compared to the Hoyts. I imagine some of that is built into the Hoyt hunting takedowns. However, a hunting bow needs to match and shine on the shots that you will take when hunting. How one shoots needs to also meld with the kind of shots you will take when hunting. I like hunting small game that requires many varied things. I like to hunt deer and not being bolted down to a tree stand and I prefer to hunt where there is a brush line or creek bottom, no trees big enough to put tree stands on. I prefer to hunt with ASLs all but three of my 50 some deer taken in the more open areas has been with ASLs, but they are not for everyone, they need to be shot properly to get the most benefit from their advantages. Those that prefer a more target based form and standing still game shots, shooting a vertical static style perhaps with a bow sight, would be better off with something else. Although, some of the hybrids available like from Toelke, big Jim and others cover a lot of ground. As far a Bear bows go, I think the Byron Fergusson design Bear Patriot was the best hunting bow they ever made. Byron still produces a model that matches it.

 

Warfs are also a good option… Warfs are actually my favorite. My Bear mini mag with samick extreme BF limbs is a killer. And it will hang (or outperform) with any of the newer ILF rigs minus maybe the super curves.

 

My Black Hunter shoots as well as any recurve I've ever owned, and I've owned dozens of them. You can dog them all you like, but fact is they are great bows. And yes, like the Sage, if one blows up people are all over it, but they make 100 times more bows than most other companies so the breakage versus product on the market is very low. A good shooter will outshoot you with a Sage, even if your bow is a $1500.00 model, if you aren't up to his skill level. It always has been the shooter, not the bow.

 

If this is the case you need a good recurve-at least one. Nothing wrong with a Black Hunter or Samick Sage. Great bows to start with…great bows to continue with. YOU yourself may also shoot them as good as you can shoot any of your other bows. I buy that. I’ll also agree with your statement about it being the archer not the bow. But insinuating that a Black Hunter shoots as well as any/most high end bows?
Nah, come on man be real. You need a good recurve.

 

A premium bow isn't going to make you a better shot or help you shoot better. If you're shooting sucks, it's the indian, not the bow.

If you have your shooting form down and are doing good with your current bow, a "premium" bow will help refine your skills and help you shoot better. It will help, not work magic or a miracle....you still have to have the skills.