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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I’m in the market for a completely new set of arrows. Right now I’ve got some Black Eagle Carnivores that the shmuck minimum-wage kids at Sportsman’s Warehouse really botched. Some arrows are +/- 0.25” from the cut length I told them. I’ve also had nearly every insert they “glued” in come flying out on the backside of the target. It’s like they were running out of epoxy and only used the tiniest dabs.

Anyway, being a new archer I came upon Dudley and his fascination with the Easton Axis and FMJs. The Axis arrows in particular are really interesting to me. However, my local shop disagrees.

I consider myself adept at recognizing the standard across-the-counter gun shop fuddlore, but the guys at my local shop seemed quite genuine. They mentioned that from personal hands-on experience that Axis arrows have memory, they break easily, think the BAR system is janky, and although they start out really accurate, end up becoming not so after much use.

They steered me towards the Victory RIP TKO. Nice arrows for sure…but my word they’re twice the price of the Eastons.
 

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I don't have enough experience or knowledge on the difference between the arrows you're referencing, but the ones they recommend are twice the price of the Eastons that Dudley recommends? Seems like they're just trying to push a more expensive option on you because you came in willing to spend money. From what I've read, the Axis seems like a great arrow. Hopefully others with more experience can chime in.

I know Cam Hanes gets a lot of hate around here, but he shoots (or did shoot) a version of the FMJ for what it's worth.
 

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I read a lot about the problems some people experience with arrows. And I would be the first to admit that there are some systems that are more durable than others. But I have never had a truly bad experience with any arrow of about any grade from one of the major manufacturers. What some call junk...I have used with good success. I have never retired an arrow for any reason other than damage from a hard impact incident. Including a lot of the outsert systems. I have some Easton Bloodline arrows, the 6mm mid grade arrow, I have shot thousands and thousands of times. I think about the only problem with the Hit insert is if its installed incorrectly. The FMJ can be bent, but it does not preclude me from using them some, they shoot great and penetrate super. Again only retired from an odd impact.

Do you know what you want the weight of the finished arrow to be? And what spine you need? And what length you want ? And what weight point or head you want to use? Can you fletch or do you need finished arrows?
 

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I've shot the axis. Shot them for years in fact and after awhile they do lose accuracy. Takes at least a year or two though. I've switched to Carnivores that weren't botched and they are hands down the best arrows I've used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I read a lot about the problems some people experience with arrows. And I would be the first to admit that there are some systems that are more durable than others. But I have never had a truly bad experience with any arrow of about any grade from one of the major manufacturers. What some call junk...I have used with good success. I have never retired an arrow for any reason other than damage from a hard impact incident. Including a lot of the outsert systems. I have some Easton Bloodline arrows, the 6mm mid grade arrow, I have shot thousands and thousands of times. I think about the only problem with the Hit insert is if its installed incorrectly. The FMJ can be bent, but it does not preclude me from using them some, they shoot great and penetrate super. Again only retired from an odd impact.

Do you know what you want the weight of the finished arrow to be? And what spine you need? And what length you want ? And what weight point or head you want to use? Can you fletch or do you need finished arrows?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I come from a long-range shooting background and understand exactly what you mean. It’s the same with all the bullets, powders, cases, etc. that guys argue about. What one person finds amazing another finds less so.

My goal is a 28.5” arrow, total weight around 425-450 grains, 300 spine, built with the intent of 50 yard plus shooting from a 70lb Hoyt RX-7. I’m not locked in on point weight yet, but a total outsert+insert+point weight of 150 sounds about right I suppose. Some cursory napkin math seems to get me around 15-16% FOC depending on the brand of arrow.
 

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I’m in the market for a completely new set of arrows. Right now I’ve got some Black Eagle Carnivores that the shmuck minimum-wage kids at Sportsman’s Warehouse really botched. Some arrows are +/- 0.25” from the cut length I told them. I’ve also had nearly every insert they “glued” in come flying out on the backside of the target. It’s like they were running out of epoxy and only used the tiniest dabs.

Anyway, being a new archer I came upon Dudley and his fascination with the Easton Axis and FMJs. The Axis arrows in particular are really interesting to me. However, my local shop disagrees.

I consider myself adept at recognizing the standard across-the-counter gun shop fuddlore, but the guys at my local shop seemed quite genuine. They mentioned that from personal hands-on experience that Axis arrows have memory, they break easily, think the BAR system is janky, and although they start out really accurate, end up becoming not so after much use.

They steered me towards the Victory RIP TKO. Nice arrows for sure…but my word they’re twice the price of the Eastons.
There's nothing wrong with Black Eagles, and every major brand offers some excellent arrow models. The big problem is, if you can't find someone competent at building them, you'll have negative experiences with any arrows you buy. I've been shooting compounds since 1987. When bow shops messed things up, too many times for me, around 1990, I went 100% DIY bow work. When too many internet arrow orders were disappointing, I started building my own arrows. Poorly built arrows are absolutely intolerable, no matter what brand!

Just saying...you either have to find a shop that does them right, or you have to go DIY to even figure out what arrows you like.
 

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Personally, I like gold tips. All of their regular arrows are pretty much the same, you just pick a straightness range and price point that works for you and call it good. All the components are the same off the shelf .246 diameter parts that everyone stocks. Warriors are the cheapest with the loosest tolerances, then Hunter, Hunter XT, Hunter Pro, and Black Label. The novelty ones like the fake wood "traditional" line and the Ted Nugent ones are just Hunters with a design on them (they are a touch heavier gpi though if you want a good heavy thumper). I've had the same dozen hunters for years (down to about 9 arrows now I think) and they shoot as good as always. They are affordable, no fuss and accurate enough out in the real world. I'm not saying other arrows are worse, I'm just saying that I see no need to change.

My 30" 400 spine Hunters are right at 400 grains total with 100 grain tips. If you want 425-450 then I'd get weighted inserts so you can shoot normal 100gn tips.

Also, the ones that I broke happened well outside of normal wear and tear. One hit metal, one was hit by another arrow and I don't remember what happened to the third one.
 

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I can tell you right away...that FOC number is popular. But it will limit you to lighter weight arrows per grain to hit that overall weight. You will need to stay with an arrow about 8.5 grains per inch. The Rip TKO in .300 spine will get you there with a 75 grain insert and a 100 grain point, three blazer vanes and a plastic nock
Your approx. arrow weight is: 446.38 grains.
Your arrow FOC is: 15%
And Victory's spine calculator says .300 spine is okay.
The arrow does work for you to meet the specs.
The Axis is a little heavy, the HIT offered a way to not have an outsert, and the brass insert offered weight is part of the attraction, and the arrows weight makes for a hefty hunting arrow.


Use this calculator to input the different variables, to arrive at what it will take to make your finished arrow come out about where you want it. You have to look up the component weights to fill in. To save some time, I will use some generic numbers for the nock and the vanes. Blazer vanes are 2" long and weigh about 6 grains per. A typical plastic nock weighs about 9 grains......


It helps if you settle on a diameter. The Axis and Rip TKO are .204 ID arrows. And that's a popular size for an arrow once you leave the standard size of .245 diameter. You can also go full micro with a .166 ID.

I order shafts from Lancaster sometimes, and have them cut to length for convenience, and they have always been perfect.
The Victory line TKO is a pro shop arrow to be marketed that way...arrows are up in price right now..

Look through what some of the other makers offer for your specs, arrows ,.300 spine, 8 to 9 grain per inch. You will need a total of around 175 grains on the tip. So a 50 grain insert and 125 grain tip or a 75 grain insert and 100 grain tip. Or you will have to change your wanted specs a little

Weather is bad here tomorrow. If you have more questions come back if I can help. I am familiar with most of the makers websites. Food for thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There's nothing wrong with Black Eagles, and every major brand offers some excellent arrow models. The big problem is, if you can't find someone competent at building them, you'll have negative experiences with any arrows you buy. I've been shooting compounds since 1987. When bow shops messed things up, too many times for me, around 1990, I went 100% DIY bow work. When too many internet arrow orders were disappointing, I started building my own arrows. Poorly built arrows are absolutely intolerable, no matter what brand!

Just saying...you either have to find a shop that does them right, or you have to go DIY to even figure out what arrows you like.
Well, to be clear I’m not knocking (heh) BE. I like them except for those who assembled them, and I use “assembled” in the loosest of terms. I have since moved, and the local shops near me don’t carry BE. 🤷‍♂️


I can tell you right away...that FOC number is popular. But it will limit you to lighter weight arrows per grain to hit that overall weight. You will need to stay with an arrow about 8.5 grains per inch. The Rip TKO in .300 spine will get you there with a 75 grain insert and a 100 grain point, three blazer vanes and a plastic nock
Your approx. arrow weight is: 446.38 grains.
Your arrow FOC is: 15%
And Victory's spine calculator says .300 spine is okay.
The arrow does work for you to meet the specs.
The Axis is a little heavy, the HIT offered a way to not have an outsert, and the brass insert offered weight is part of the attraction, and the arrows weight makes for a hefty hunting arrow.


Use this calculator to input the different variables, to arrive at what it will take to make your finished arrow come out about where you want it. You have to look up the component weights to fill in. To save some time, I will use some generic numbers for the nock and the vanes. Blazer vanes are 2" long and weigh about 6 grains per. A typical plastic nock weighs about 9 grains......


It helps if you settle on a diameter. The Axis and Rip TKO are .204 ID arrows. And that's a popular size for an arrow once you leave the standard size of .245 diameter. You can also go full micro with a .166 ID.

I order shafts from Lancaster sometimes, and have them cut to length for convenience, and they have always been perfect.
The Victory line TKO is a pro shop arrow to be marketed that way...arrows are up in price right now..

Look through what some of the other makers offer for your specs, arrows ,.300 spine, 8 to 9 grain per inch. You will need a total of around 175 grains on the tip. So a 50 grain insert and 125 grain tip or a 75 grain insert and 100 grain tip. Or you will have to change your wanted specs a little

Weather is bad here tomorrow. If you have more questions come back if I can help. I am familiar with most of the makers websites. Food for thought.
Thank you.

The 0.204” ID arrows mentioned seem a nice middle of the road diameter.

I was also hoping to not have to replace my 125 gr broadheads and mechanicals, so an arrow with a 50gr insert would be ideal.

I was also going to go with a 4-vane with a wrap. Not that it changes much outside of a handful of grains.

The Gold Tip Kinetic Khaos seems a bit heavy, but in the same general category as the Victories (marketed as durable with an outsert).

Some of the frustration I am having is that it seems that with archery there isn’t a lot of real data driven analysis to make decisions. I can’t look up Doppler radar verified drag coefficients for arrows or various components like I can with bullets. Much seems left to individual experience at best, and straight up fan-boy opinion at worst.
 

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I've shot bargain victory v force arrows, cx pile-drivers, and now the BE carnivores. All 3 were great but the victory's were less consistent (only. 006 straightness) instead of the others being .003).
 

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So, lots of good suggestions here, but if you are new to archery and just learning and want arrows for target, 3D and hunting; you are probably fine with the BE carnivores. I wouldn't get worked up over the .25" diff in arrow length as it probably won't impact your shooting anyway and don't let that get into your head. Otherwise you'll be blaming inconsistent shooting with the way your arrows were cut. As far as the inserts, coming out, that's an easy fix too.
Here's a suggestion, Go back to Sportsman's warehouse and let them know that the arrow lengths were cut inconsistently and the inserts are coming out and ask them to cut them all the same and re-install inserts.

Also, inserts are very easy to install. If you want, just have the arrows cut, and you can install the inserts (youtube installing inserts you want using the weight you prefer. So long as the vanes are in good shape, I'd keep using your BE's until you shoot more, work on your form, and improve generally.

I'm not suggesting to not upgrade your arrow setup, but I wouldn't do it just yet as I don't think you'll notice improved shooting by buying better arrows.
 

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I come from a long-range shooting background and understand exactly what you mean. It’s the same with all the bullets, powders, cases, etc. that guys argue about. What one person finds amazing another finds less so.

My goal is a 28.5” arrow, total weight around 425-450 grains, 300 spine, built with the intent of 50 yard plus shooting from a 70lb Hoyt RX-7. I’m not locked in on point weight yet, but a total outsert+insert+point weight of 150 sounds about right I suppose. Some cursory napkin math seems to get me around 15-16% FOC depending on the brand of arrow.
Sounds like your shop knows what they're doing. RIP TKO will make the specs you just listed, but a 300 FMJ never will because the shaft is too high gpi.
 

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So many complications with smaller diameter shafts, plus an increase in cost. Stick with standard size carbons.

Those carnivor shafts are awesome. Order from black eagle direct, build your own, and use their insert glue. You wont regret the little extra work that comes with the project.

Dont let the performance of idiots ruin a good product
 

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The memory your shop guys are referring to happens to come from the amount of resin that Easton uses compared to companies like Gold Tip. So if bend an Easton Axis for a week or so it will definitely remain bent. However this is mostly a non issue for arrows that are just sitting in a quiver. Every arrow on the market can suffer from spine deterioration after repeated use. So the Axis is no different than any other shaft in that regard. Axis would probably be best for a guy like you that is nock spine indexing or nock tuning. Easton does not employ a wrap and roll process and thus does not in theory have a stiff side of the spine. Lot to lots are also more consistent due to Axis coming out of a pulltrusion machine versus a shop worker in Mexico. Installation of hidden inserts is also a far better system than some crap half out collar system. I would stay away from FMJ's due to life span and durability, horrible idea putting the aluminum on the outside of a shaft.
 

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South shore archery and Lancaster sells individual shafts, I would suggest buying one each and testing them. I’ve tested the RIP TKOs head to head with the Axis and both performed well. The TKO gave me more insert/head options due to lower GPI so I went that route. We’ve also had great luck with anything from Black Eagle, even the Outlaw which is their “budget” arrow.
 

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This is precisely why I stopped going to "pro" shops a couple decades ago. Good ones are far outnumbered by poor shops that freely give out biased "advice" as if were industry-wide knowledge. Axis are fine shafts that have been around a long time and are widely used. As noted, the HIT system is really solid but must be done correctly.....as in following the directions Easton provides along with a packet of two-part epoxy. Guys who purposefully deviate because they are smarter than the shaft maker and then complain about poor results are severely lacking in credibility.

The majority of carbon shafts today are pretty decent....and made in China. Google "carbon arrow shafts" and open a link to Amazon....you will find dozens of brands that are likely the same few shafts with different labels. If that is what you want, then go for it.....just make sure you either have someone familiar with quality arrow construction do the work or learn to do it yourself. I prefer my American made Easton Axis shafts and will continue to use them for shooting and hunting.
 

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I don't listen to them about arrows. Arrows (IMO) are what more about what you are looking for. Some people don't know and others don't care. I wasn't a big fan of the FMJ's when they came out because the hit inserts and even thought people think they are a heavy arrow mine only weighed 415 grains so too me they are not heavy.

The new 6mm FMJ's are going to be heavier because I need to get the 300's now plus they have the more standard insert so I'm trying them again. I REALLY like a aluminum outer core. 10 X easier to pull from my 3d deer target and easier to re-fletch. Other carbons can't offer that so that's why I'm trying them......if they don't work I always have the ol' 2315's.

Last I really believe FOC & OD are marketing buzz words right now for 95% of us. You might get a tiny bit of penetration gains on large game if you encounter bone but that's really it. I have shot lower FOC 2412's that weighed in the 440 grain range and never saw any penetration issues I could put my finger on at my spec's. Like I said bad shoulders, some women or small children shooting large game........maybe some minor advantages but for most of us it's all about TAW....those two are literally a drop in the bucket.
 

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Nothing wrong with Axis arrows but if you could swing it I’d opt for the match grades in them.

The match grades are just a touch under what you’d get from the Black Eagle .001 shafts. Meaning in a given dozen the Black Eagles are tighter tolerance wise than the Victory or Axis, at least from what I’ve tested as of late.

Your spitting hairs thou and most wouldn’t notice the difference.

Currently shooting Black Eagle Deep Impacts, X Impacts and 4mm Axis with excellent results.

Just buy the best tolerance arrows you can afford regardless of brand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
So, lots of good suggestions here, but if you are new to archery and just learning and want arrows for target, 3D and hunting; you are probably fine with the BE carnivores. I wouldn't get worked up over the .25" diff in arrow length as it probably won't impact your shooting anyway and don't let that get into your head. Otherwise you'll be blaming inconsistent shooting with the way your arrows were cut. As far as the inserts, coming out, that's an easy fix too.
Here's a suggestion, Go back to Sportsman's warehouse and let them know that the arrow lengths were cut inconsistently and the inserts are coming out and ask them to cut them all the same and re-install inserts.

Also, inserts are very easy to install. If you want, just have the arrows cut, and you can install the inserts (youtube installing inserts you want using the weight you prefer. So long as the vanes are in good shape, I'd keep using your BE's until you shoot more, work on your form, and improve generally.

I'm not suggesting to not upgrade your arrow setup, but I wouldn't do it just yet as I don't think you'll notice improved shooting by buying better arrows.
Unfortunately, going back to Sportsman’s isn’t an option. Mostly due to function of distance and time, as I have since moved.

Thankfully I have been able recover and re-glue nearly all of the inserts. I found that most had, point and all, embedded ever so slightly in an old wooden fence behind my target. A handful were lost in grass. Amazingly, for once, I had the foresight to purchase an extra pack of inserts when I picked the arrows up.

But yes, I completely agree about the current arrows I own. For my present purposes, they are sufficient. I’m using them strictly at this point as a practice arrow. I don’t really care what happens; not that I’m shooting with reckless abandon or a lack of care for the equipment, but I’m just less fussed when something goes wrong (i.e., splitting one arrow with another, cracking a shaft by hitting a wooden fence post, losing one in the woods, etc.).
 
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