which do you believe cuts/penetrates better and why??
scrapejuice
straight.
The only use for serrations is to maintain some sharpness between the points. Sacrifice sharpness at the point to save the valley.
I know that a serrated knife gets gunked up during dressing and imagine that a broadhead of that design would suffer the same fate to a smaller degree.
The only use for serrations is to maintain some sharpness between the points. Sacrifice sharpness at the point to save the valley.
I know that a serrated knife gets gunked up during dressing and imagine that a broadhead of that design would suffer the same fate to a smaller degree.
I think he might be on to something there. Ever accidentally cut yourself with a serrated edge while working in the kitchen? It takes alot longer to heal than a cut from a straight edge. And I would think that as long as your arrows carries enough KE and does not hit a major obstacle, you should get full penetration. I do not have any scientific proof to back this up though.
They work...
I have used a couple serrated broadheads and I will say this, I always got poor penetration, but I always got my deer. So they did there job, but I didn't get pass throughs like I wanted. Switched to slick tricks and got pass throughs on both of my does this last fall, and dead deer with in 50 yards.
I have used a couple serrated broadheads and I will say this, I always got poor penetration, but I always got my deer. So they did there job, but I didn't get pass throughs like I wanted. Switched to slick tricks and got pass throughs on both of my does this last fall, and dead deer with in 50 yards.
straight heads are going to penetrate more because a smooth blade will have less resistance compared to a ruff blade.
serrated blades cause more damage on the other hand and still will penetrate great.
that said. i cant wait to get my magnus buzzcuts.
serrated blades cause more damage on the other hand and still will penetrate great.
that said. i cant wait to get my magnus buzzcuts.
Well of course Magnus would say that the serrated blade performs well....makes them money. Please understand, I like the company and I use Magnus products, but why would they shoot themself in the foot.
You asked which penetrates better....the answer is pretty clear on the poll as well as in the hunting community. Look, when we shoot compounds, penetration is less evident because of the high speeds todays amazing cams and limbs, but do some penetration tests with traditional equipment and the results are a little clearer (in my opinion. ) If you have the time google the Dr. Ashby report in regards to penetration and durability. This will give you some idea how various designs and blade angles play a role in real animal penetration. Much of the recent studies also credit the tip design to the overall durability of the head and thus the total penetration. Believe it or not, the long narrow single bevel blade, with a "tanto"tip design has been proven to be the best all around for traditional speeds. But with very high speed bows and less weight in the arrow most of the compound hunters shoot, maybe the chisel tip styles have some advantages. Test a few and let us know!
You asked which penetrates better....the answer is pretty clear on the poll as well as in the hunting community. Look, when we shoot compounds, penetration is less evident because of the high speeds todays amazing cams and limbs, but do some penetration tests with traditional equipment and the results are a little clearer (in my opinion. ) If you have the time google the Dr. Ashby report in regards to penetration and durability. This will give you some idea how various designs and blade angles play a role in real animal penetration. Much of the recent studies also credit the tip design to the overall durability of the head and thus the total penetration. Believe it or not, the long narrow single bevel blade, with a "tanto"tip design has been proven to be the best all around for traditional speeds. But with very high speed bows and less weight in the arrow most of the compound hunters shoot, maybe the chisel tip styles have some advantages. Test a few and let us know!
Here is the response I was given by Woody Sanford of Magnus when I asked about the Buzzcuts..............................
I wouldn't consider myself a rep, I'm the R&D Engineer and I hang out here because I'm a bowhunter, shot Mathews for years and suffer the same affliction as you wacko's.
I'm not here to sell anything but if you want an answer to a tech issue I'm happy to give it but its not from a salesman’s perspective.
A serration is a simple mechanical means of cutting. It functions by utilizing alternate points of penetration to initiate cutting. The one thing that it is dependant on is it can only be use in a specific direction, unless it is doubled and one side reversed like on some saw blades.
There are thousands of serrations, some man made and some in nature like sharks teeth or the edge on the side of grass. Some cut cleaner than others and the serration on the Buzzcut is called a chisel serration. The recess in front is not used for cutting, it is there to cause relief from pushing and keep the structure like a greater vein or branch of the bronchial tree in contact with the blade. The forward corner of the chisel is the point of penetration that functions like a COC tip does, then there is a portion of edge behind it to continue cutting. Then another point and edge to follow.
Some guys are really good at sharpening and can re-use a smooth edge and maintain its sharpness after shooting or time in the quiver. Others can’t and the thing with the Buzzcut is that you are maintaining a shape more so than an edge, hope that makes sense, anyway it is also more durable in regards to quiver time and penetrating a ribcage. The chisel serration cuts very cleanly, it doesn’t rip anything and is more effective at cutting structures in the thoracic cavity. These structures like the bronchial tree are allowed some freedom of movement and can be pushed aside and they are much stronger than people give them credit for, so the effectiveness of a smooth edge is dependant on the level of sharpness alone where the chisel serration is more dependant on just the sharpness of the forward corner of the chisel, which is easy for anyone to square up with a Lanskey or Gatco type sharpener.
I use the two blade Buzzcut. I’ve killed 7 moose a couple griz, 13 caribou and several bears and a ton of deer with it and I find my animals at a short distance. Out of 12 deer this year the furthest made it about 26 yards but that’s also dependant on shot placement. I prefer the two blade because I don’t take it off the arrow or apart to re-sharpen it. I’ve killed deer, re-fletched and re-sharpened and fired it right back in the quiver. I shoot them a lot and its easy to just re-sharpen and fire them back in the quiver and know they will still hit where I want them to. I do notice I get a lesser flight response from animals due to two blades, most of the time the deer jumps like it was spooked and stops at about 15-20 yards to see what the noise was and they go down right there, which is pretty cool to see. I shot a moose that didn’t stop eating and a couple bears that didn’t even pull their head out of the barrel, the shortest blood trails I’ve ever had were with two blade heads.
I wouldn't consider myself a rep, I'm the R&D Engineer and I hang out here because I'm a bowhunter, shot Mathews for years and suffer the same affliction as you wacko's.
I'm not here to sell anything but if you want an answer to a tech issue I'm happy to give it but its not from a salesman’s perspective.
A serration is a simple mechanical means of cutting. It functions by utilizing alternate points of penetration to initiate cutting. The one thing that it is dependant on is it can only be use in a specific direction, unless it is doubled and one side reversed like on some saw blades.
There are thousands of serrations, some man made and some in nature like sharks teeth or the edge on the side of grass. Some cut cleaner than others and the serration on the Buzzcut is called a chisel serration. The recess in front is not used for cutting, it is there to cause relief from pushing and keep the structure like a greater vein or branch of the bronchial tree in contact with the blade. The forward corner of the chisel is the point of penetration that functions like a COC tip does, then there is a portion of edge behind it to continue cutting. Then another point and edge to follow.
Some guys are really good at sharpening and can re-use a smooth edge and maintain its sharpness after shooting or time in the quiver. Others can’t and the thing with the Buzzcut is that you are maintaining a shape more so than an edge, hope that makes sense, anyway it is also more durable in regards to quiver time and penetrating a ribcage. The chisel serration cuts very cleanly, it doesn’t rip anything and is more effective at cutting structures in the thoracic cavity. These structures like the bronchial tree are allowed some freedom of movement and can be pushed aside and they are much stronger than people give them credit for, so the effectiveness of a smooth edge is dependant on the level of sharpness alone where the chisel serration is more dependant on just the sharpness of the forward corner of the chisel, which is easy for anyone to square up with a Lanskey or Gatco type sharpener.
I use the two blade Buzzcut. I’ve killed 7 moose a couple griz, 13 caribou and several bears and a ton of deer with it and I find my animals at a short distance. Out of 12 deer this year the furthest made it about 26 yards but that’s also dependant on shot placement. I prefer the two blade because I don’t take it off the arrow or apart to re-sharpen it. I’ve killed deer, re-fletched and re-sharpened and fired it right back in the quiver. I shoot them a lot and its easy to just re-sharpen and fire them back in the quiver and know they will still hit where I want them to. I do notice I get a lesser flight response from animals due to two blades, most of the time the deer jumps like it was spooked and stops at about 15-20 yards to see what the noise was and they go down right there, which is pretty cool to see. I shot a moose that didn’t stop eating and a couple bears that didn’t even pull their head out of the barrel, the shortest blood trails I’ve ever had were with two blade heads.
FWIW - I'm not shooting serrated edge BH's - but I can see why they might work well. I can also see where it might take more KE to push one through an animal, though.
I remember being at a sportsman's show a few years back - there was a guy there demonstrating Spyderco knives. He had a section of 3/4" manilla rope hanging free from the ceiling. Comparing how hard it was to cut through it with a serrated edge Spyderco compared to a very sharp smooth edge. No contest. Also no contest when it comes to automobile seat belts.
I remember being at a sportsman's show a few years back - there was a guy there demonstrating Spyderco knives. He had a section of 3/4" manilla rope hanging free from the ceiling. Comparing how hard it was to cut through it with a serrated edge Spyderco compared to a very sharp smooth edge. No contest. Also no contest when it comes to automobile seat belts.
very good info here. Here is some more good info that doesn't EXACTLY address BH blades, but you should be able to make the connection. A bit of a lengthy read, but very educational.
"Plain vs. Serrated Knife" by Joe Talmadge
Contents:
I. Introduction
II. Plain vs. Serrated: The Conventional View
III. Plain vs. Serrated Re-thought
IV. What Should I Carry?
V. Thoughts On The Partially-Serrated Blade
I. Introductions
There's been a jump in recent years in the popularity of serrated edges, and there's often confusion as to when a serrated edge is advantageous, versus when a plain edge is advantageous. The question comes up often in rec.knives.
For our discussion, we'll need to talk about what we're doing with the knife. Think about what you can do with a knife: you can shave, slice, slash, saw, hack, chop, etc. For our purposes, we'll divide all knife uses into two very broad categories:
Push cuts: The main cutting is done by pushing the edge through the thing-to-be-cut. For example, when you shave, you push the edge of the knife through your beard. When peeling an apple, you push the edge under the skin of the apple. When chopping wood, you try to push the edge into and through the wood.
Slicing cuts: The cutting action is substantially done by dragging the edge across the thing-to-be-cut. When you slice meat or a tomato, you drag the edge across the tomato as you cut through it. Slicing and sawing are examples of slicing cuts.
II. Plain vs. Serrated: The Conventional View
In general, the plain edge is better than the serrated when the application involves push cuts. Also, the plain edge is superior when extreme control, accuracy, and clean cuts are necessary, regardless of whether or not the job is push cuts or slices.
In general, the serrated edge will work better than the plain edge for slicing cuts, especially through hard or tough surfaces, where the serrations tend to grab and cut the surface easily. Some of the cutting power of the serrated edge is due to its format alone; thus, even a dull serrated edge knife will often perform competently at slicing jobs. The serrated edge gets its slicing ability from a number of factors. The high points on the serrations will touch the material first, and this gives those points higher pressure per area than if the same pressure was applied to a plain blade; this allows the serration to puncture more easily. In addition, serrations are normally chisel-ground into the blade, which means they are thinner (and thus cut better) than the comparable plain blade.
The plain edge will work better for applications like shaving, skinning an apple, skinning a deer. All those applications involve either mostly push cuts, or the need for extreme control. Serrations work really well on things like tough rope or wood, where the serrations bite through quickly.
Generally, the more push cuts are used, the more necessary it is for the plain edge to have a "razor polished" edge. A knife edge becomes more polished when you move to higher and higher grit stones. Generally, 1200-grit is considered polished; a 6000+ grit Japanese water stone would polish the edge further.
One interesting case is cutting a tomato. In theory, you can just push a blade through a tomato, so a razor polished plain edge would work fine. However, the tomato is soft, and unless your plain edge knife is very sharp, the tomato will simply squish when you start pushing. You can (and many people do) use a slicing motion with your plain blade, but if it's even a little dull it won't cut well and it may not even break the skin. Use a sawing motion with a serrated knife (even a dull one), and your tomato will slice fine.
You will read about test after test where the above view is confirmed. That is, the plain edge excels in push cuts, and the serrated excels in slicing cuts. This confirms the conventional view @... to an extent.
III. Plain vs. Serrated Re-thought
Since actual tests confirm the truth of the conventional view, what more is there to be said? The problem is that the tests are often not as thorough as they need to be. That is, when testing plain vs. serrated performance, most tests are comparing a plain polished edge to a serrated edge. Given that, it is no surprise that the serrated blade easily outperforms the plain blade when cutting (for example) rope.
A polished edge is not the only choice with a plain blade. One can get the plain edge to perform much differently when sharpened with coarser stone. People who cut rope often use a plain edge sharpened on a file, to get an incredibly coarse, "micro-serrated" edge that performs wonderfully at slicing jobs. So the knife testers are testing with polished plain edges, whereas people experienced with cutting rope use coarsely-ground plain edges.
Whether or not serrated blades will out-slice coarse-ground plain blades seems to depend on the medium being cut. Harder materials (or materials under tension) do well for serrated blades. With softer materials, the serrations will sometimes catch and unwind the material rather than cut -- in this case, coarse-ground plain blades may easily out-slice serrated blades.
So the claim that serrated edges work better than plain edges for slicing needs to be re-examined. It appears that as materials get harder or put under more tension, the serrated edge may slice a bit better than a coarse-ground plain edge. As the material gets softer and looser, the coarse-ground plain edge may slice a bit better. And as we go towards push cuts, the polished plain edge comes into its own. The user may want to experiment on those materials that he often cuts, before choosing the edge format.
In addition, keep in mind that the coarse plain edge is much easier to sharpen than the serrated edge. Just grab your file or extra coarse stone, take a few swipes, and you're ready to go. With the serrated blade, you'll need to find a sharpening rig with the special serrated blade sharpener. Balancing this is the fact that serrated blades need to be sharpened less often.
IV. What Should I Carry?
Should you carry a serrated blade or plain blade for everyday utility carry? Unless you *know* that the majority of work you'll be doing heavily favors slicing or pushing (e.g., "I spend all my time whittling"), it may not matter much. My experience has been that general utility work is usually general enough that either format works just fine, though these days I tend to lean towards plain blades. Also keep in mind that by changing your sharpening strategy on the plain edge, you can significantly change its characteristics. If you do a lot of push cutting, you want to go with a razor polished plain edge. If you do a lot of slicing, you'll need to decide between a coarse-ground plain edge and a serrated edge. I don't mind sharpening, so I lean towards plain blades, strategically sharpened to the right grit (polished or coarse) for the jobs I happen do be doing.
Occasionally, people mention that the serrated edge looks intimidating to the masses. This could be good if you're using this knife primarily for self defense and want an intimidation factor. Or it could be bad, if you're carrying for utility work and don't want to scare people (especially the nice officer who pulled you over for speeding and asks to look at the knife in your sheath). Rumor has it that airport guards are particularly strict about serrated edges. Other than at airports, I don't think the menacing appearance of the serrated edge is important enough either way to affect what I carry.
V. Thoughts On The Partially-Serrated Blade
Another option is the combination plain/serrated edge. This format appears to have overtaken the all-serrated format. Typically, the 50%-60% of the blade nearest the tip is plain, while the back 40%-50% is serrated. There are mixed feelings on this format. Many people swear by this format, and feel that it is a good compromise, giving the user the choice of precise push cuts from the plain edge, and the advantage of the serrated edge for tougher materials. However, keep in mind that on a 3.25" blade, there's maybe 1.25" of serrations. The detractors of this format feel that 1.25" is too short a length for the serrations to be really be useful, and the length of the plain edge is being sacrificed for no good gain.
My own philosophy on partially-serrated blades at the moment is that since I have both edge formats in one knife, I try to let each one shine in their respective areas. So I'm razor polishing the plain edge part, often on a 1200 grit diamond stone or even 6000 grit Japanese water stone, and then stropping it. The plain edge is scary sharp for push cuts, and I use the serrations when I need to cut through hard or fibrous material.
Partially-serrated blades are often serrated at the "wrong" place. For example, for camp use, I might want the belly serrated for cutting my steak, and the part near the handle razor-polished for whittling and control-type usage. However, 99.9% of partially-serrated blades are ground exactly the opposite: the ripping inaccurate serrations are at the control part of the blade, and the plain part is out at the slicing part.
In theory, one can use a plain blade to get similar performance to a partially-serrated blade. Just razor polish the plain blade, and then rough up one part of the edge on a file, to get a knife that will excel at push cuts at one point of the blade, and excel at slicing cuts at another.
"Plain vs. Serrated Knife" by Joe Talmadge
Contents:
I. Introduction
II. Plain vs. Serrated: The Conventional View
III. Plain vs. Serrated Re-thought
IV. What Should I Carry?
V. Thoughts On The Partially-Serrated Blade
I. Introductions
There's been a jump in recent years in the popularity of serrated edges, and there's often confusion as to when a serrated edge is advantageous, versus when a plain edge is advantageous. The question comes up often in rec.knives.
For our discussion, we'll need to talk about what we're doing with the knife. Think about what you can do with a knife: you can shave, slice, slash, saw, hack, chop, etc. For our purposes, we'll divide all knife uses into two very broad categories:
Push cuts: The main cutting is done by pushing the edge through the thing-to-be-cut. For example, when you shave, you push the edge of the knife through your beard. When peeling an apple, you push the edge under the skin of the apple. When chopping wood, you try to push the edge into and through the wood.
Slicing cuts: The cutting action is substantially done by dragging the edge across the thing-to-be-cut. When you slice meat or a tomato, you drag the edge across the tomato as you cut through it. Slicing and sawing are examples of slicing cuts.
II. Plain vs. Serrated: The Conventional View
In general, the plain edge is better than the serrated when the application involves push cuts. Also, the plain edge is superior when extreme control, accuracy, and clean cuts are necessary, regardless of whether or not the job is push cuts or slices.
In general, the serrated edge will work better than the plain edge for slicing cuts, especially through hard or tough surfaces, where the serrations tend to grab and cut the surface easily. Some of the cutting power of the serrated edge is due to its format alone; thus, even a dull serrated edge knife will often perform competently at slicing jobs. The serrated edge gets its slicing ability from a number of factors. The high points on the serrations will touch the material first, and this gives those points higher pressure per area than if the same pressure was applied to a plain blade; this allows the serration to puncture more easily. In addition, serrations are normally chisel-ground into the blade, which means they are thinner (and thus cut better) than the comparable plain blade.
The plain edge will work better for applications like shaving, skinning an apple, skinning a deer. All those applications involve either mostly push cuts, or the need for extreme control. Serrations work really well on things like tough rope or wood, where the serrations bite through quickly.
Generally, the more push cuts are used, the more necessary it is for the plain edge to have a "razor polished" edge. A knife edge becomes more polished when you move to higher and higher grit stones. Generally, 1200-grit is considered polished; a 6000+ grit Japanese water stone would polish the edge further.
One interesting case is cutting a tomato. In theory, you can just push a blade through a tomato, so a razor polished plain edge would work fine. However, the tomato is soft, and unless your plain edge knife is very sharp, the tomato will simply squish when you start pushing. You can (and many people do) use a slicing motion with your plain blade, but if it's even a little dull it won't cut well and it may not even break the skin. Use a sawing motion with a serrated knife (even a dull one), and your tomato will slice fine.
You will read about test after test where the above view is confirmed. That is, the plain edge excels in push cuts, and the serrated excels in slicing cuts. This confirms the conventional view @... to an extent.
III. Plain vs. Serrated Re-thought
Since actual tests confirm the truth of the conventional view, what more is there to be said? The problem is that the tests are often not as thorough as they need to be. That is, when testing plain vs. serrated performance, most tests are comparing a plain polished edge to a serrated edge. Given that, it is no surprise that the serrated blade easily outperforms the plain blade when cutting (for example) rope.
A polished edge is not the only choice with a plain blade. One can get the plain edge to perform much differently when sharpened with coarser stone. People who cut rope often use a plain edge sharpened on a file, to get an incredibly coarse, "micro-serrated" edge that performs wonderfully at slicing jobs. So the knife testers are testing with polished plain edges, whereas people experienced with cutting rope use coarsely-ground plain edges.
Whether or not serrated blades will out-slice coarse-ground plain blades seems to depend on the medium being cut. Harder materials (or materials under tension) do well for serrated blades. With softer materials, the serrations will sometimes catch and unwind the material rather than cut -- in this case, coarse-ground plain blades may easily out-slice serrated blades.
So the claim that serrated edges work better than plain edges for slicing needs to be re-examined. It appears that as materials get harder or put under more tension, the serrated edge may slice a bit better than a coarse-ground plain edge. As the material gets softer and looser, the coarse-ground plain edge may slice a bit better. And as we go towards push cuts, the polished plain edge comes into its own. The user may want to experiment on those materials that he often cuts, before choosing the edge format.
In addition, keep in mind that the coarse plain edge is much easier to sharpen than the serrated edge. Just grab your file or extra coarse stone, take a few swipes, and you're ready to go. With the serrated blade, you'll need to find a sharpening rig with the special serrated blade sharpener. Balancing this is the fact that serrated blades need to be sharpened less often.
IV. What Should I Carry?
Should you carry a serrated blade or plain blade for everyday utility carry? Unless you *know* that the majority of work you'll be doing heavily favors slicing or pushing (e.g., "I spend all my time whittling"), it may not matter much. My experience has been that general utility work is usually general enough that either format works just fine, though these days I tend to lean towards plain blades. Also keep in mind that by changing your sharpening strategy on the plain edge, you can significantly change its characteristics. If you do a lot of push cutting, you want to go with a razor polished plain edge. If you do a lot of slicing, you'll need to decide between a coarse-ground plain edge and a serrated edge. I don't mind sharpening, so I lean towards plain blades, strategically sharpened to the right grit (polished or coarse) for the jobs I happen do be doing.
Occasionally, people mention that the serrated edge looks intimidating to the masses. This could be good if you're using this knife primarily for self defense and want an intimidation factor. Or it could be bad, if you're carrying for utility work and don't want to scare people (especially the nice officer who pulled you over for speeding and asks to look at the knife in your sheath). Rumor has it that airport guards are particularly strict about serrated edges. Other than at airports, I don't think the menacing appearance of the serrated edge is important enough either way to affect what I carry.
V. Thoughts On The Partially-Serrated Blade
Another option is the combination plain/serrated edge. This format appears to have overtaken the all-serrated format. Typically, the 50%-60% of the blade nearest the tip is plain, while the back 40%-50% is serrated. There are mixed feelings on this format. Many people swear by this format, and feel that it is a good compromise, giving the user the choice of precise push cuts from the plain edge, and the advantage of the serrated edge for tougher materials. However, keep in mind that on a 3.25" blade, there's maybe 1.25" of serrations. The detractors of this format feel that 1.25" is too short a length for the serrations to be really be useful, and the length of the plain edge is being sacrificed for no good gain.
My own philosophy on partially-serrated blades at the moment is that since I have both edge formats in one knife, I try to let each one shine in their respective areas. So I'm razor polishing the plain edge part, often on a 1200 grit diamond stone or even 6000 grit Japanese water stone, and then stropping it. The plain edge is scary sharp for push cuts, and I use the serrations when I need to cut through hard or fibrous material.
Partially-serrated blades are often serrated at the "wrong" place. For example, for camp use, I might want the belly serrated for cutting my steak, and the part near the handle razor-polished for whittling and control-type usage. However, 99.9% of partially-serrated blades are ground exactly the opposite: the ripping inaccurate serrations are at the control part of the blade, and the plain part is out at the slicing part.
In theory, one can use a plain blade to get similar performance to a partially-serrated blade. Just razor polish the plain blade, and then rough up one part of the edge on a file, to get a knife that will excel at push cuts at one point of the blade, and excel at slicing cuts at another.
One factor
All serrations are not the same. Take a close look at the Buzzcut serrations compared to a serrated knife- totally different.
I have seen some of Woody's [from Magnus] very impressive wound channel testing and there is no tearing or ragged cuts from those Buzzcuts.
All serrations are not the same. Take a close look at the Buzzcut serrations compared to a serrated knife- totally different.
I have seen some of Woody's [from Magnus] very impressive wound channel testing and there is no tearing or ragged cuts from those Buzzcuts.
This was my first year using a serrated head, used te buzzcut and the steelforce. I'm only shooting 50lbs now due to an injury and I had better penetration this last fall than years prior with mechanical heads and 70 lbs. I didn't notice any lack of blood either, quite the opposite. Makes sence what the guy was saying about the structures inside, I've noticed how tough they are while gutting.
Cant say I have ever even seen serreated broadhead blades. Ill stick with my straight edge they have been working good for me.
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