Archery Talk Forum banner

1 - 20 of 79 Posts

·
Francis
Joined
·
2,529 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I want to buy a new target bow this year and one of the big decisions is whether I want to try a shoot through design or not.

I am waiting to see what martin has new this year.

I am sure there is some benefit to the design, but I just wonder in real life shooting is it a benefit that will have real meaning.

You see all these world record accuracy shoots being made without that design , so why isnt it being used by more people then if it really makes a big difference, I am always looking for something that may help a bit just like everyone else and if it really is great then I would go for it.........I wonder why hoyt and other big name havent come out with this??

just want to hear some opinions on this.

the only bad thing about it that I can see is that I wont be able to use the muzzy zero effect rest on it!!!!!
I like this rest the best, especially for hunting . O well LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,768 Posts
The biggest advantage to any shoot thru design is that side loading of the cables is eliminated. For the average shooter, it really seems to decrease the margin of error, especially on left/right misses. Another big advantage is that your sights, string, stabilizer and arrow all line up on the centerline of the riser. This means that the bowstring bisects the riser compartment right down the middle, and everything else falls right on that plane. This actually simplifies the tuning process, by allowing different arrow spines to work in situations where arrow spine selection is usually more critical. Yet another advantage is definitely the elimination of hand torque applied to the system. With a cable guard, many bows are very easy to torque, since they are trying to "stress relieve" in that direction anyway. All in all, the plusses outweigh the minuses by a long shot. I believe that all bow companies could benefit from building bows in this fashion, eliminating cam lean, string and cable wear, and extending bearing/axle life. Some custom bow companies like Bowman's Accuriser with Wedel cams, Barnsdale's "Ultimate X" as well as patent holder Martin Archery have already recognized the beauty of this system. I think shoot-thru bows are here to stay, and I fully expect to see more companies using this type of cable arrangement in the near future. Bottom line- once you shoot a bow with no cable guard, you will never go back
:)
 

·
Francis
Joined
·
2,529 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks JIm,


One question though ,

I know my muzzy drop away wont work , but how about a drop away like the trophy taker for example, will theses work OK on a shoot through system if I desired to use one?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,768 Posts
Sure, there are plenty of great drop away type rests that will work. I know of at least a dozen top shooters using trophy taker rests on their Fury X bows. Just do a search for Trophy Takers and you'll see pictures, desciptions, diagrams, etc. No Problem!:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,974 Posts
JDES900X
You say that the biggest advantage to a shoot thru system is that the side loading of the cables is eliminated.For the average shooter,it really seems to decrease the margin of error.especially on left/right misses.? If you have your cableguard adjusted correctly,and your bow tuned correctly,why would this make a difference on right/left misses?Maybe I dont understand.Can you elaberate for me?

thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
francis..............I have a Hoyt Protec, that before I put the shoot thru on could not get it to paper tune. No matter what arrow I tried, it would not shoot a bullet hole. Now that there is a shoot thru on it I can shoot a bullet hole with any arrow I have from the 3-04 ACC that my wife shoots to the 2613's. Dosen't matter where you shoot them from 2' to 20 yds.

Best investment as for Bow goodies I have ever done.
I also shoot a GKF Golden Premier fallaway.

Also the reason a lot of Pro's don't shoot them is, the company they shoot for dosen't make them.

If the did, they would shoot them. For all the reason's JDES900X gave.:cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Well here is my two cents, the split system may eliminate some of the torque in the bow, but your going to torque the thing anyway when you shoot it.THere has been lots of great scores shot with some nasty set ups, I guess the what counts is that YOU can reproduce YOUR shot time after time, if you are shooting a shoot through and having to worry about clearance or how you hold your arm etc, then how consistent are you going to be?
THe average Joe has a hard enough time snycronizing two cables nevermind four!
If it was so great then how come more of the PROS dont use one?
THe shoot through system has been around for years and I am sure it will be for years to come, like any other trend, no different than the drop away!!!
You could ask the pros who choose to not use it but do you really think they will say whats on their mind? doubt it they will just make up another excuse .
PLus you got to look at the possibility of your fletching contacting the cables, the peep hitting the cables, longer axles to bend etc.

Not bashing just trying to keep you informed.

Norm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
francis..........most of that is not true. in the first place I shoot the merlin spreaders on mine which give plenty of room for fletching. I shoot 2512's with 4" feathers with no contact.How could the peep hit the cables, when there arent any cables in line with the peep? Longer axels to bend. Not. I used the same axels that came on the bow. Still only 2 cables to synchronize. The splitters are hooked to the wheels with just a short cable.(9 1/2" ) on my bow. I saw on another thread about bare shaft tuning. I was having the same discussion with another shooter. I cut the fletching off an arrow, proceeded to shoot that same arrow in the X at 20 yds. Went and retrieved it and done it again. That is the kind of shootability you can expect from a Hoyt with a shoot thru system.

Not BSing, just keeping you informed.
Read my signature about advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
Not wanting to bash, but if the issues that split cables cured were important at all, you would see more of thses around. Martin is the only major bow maker to use this system, and a large number of their own prostaff do not feel that the benifits of such a system outways the reduced clearnace for the bowarm. This is proven by the fact that many do not use the Xcams. Cable guarded bows have proven that they will shoot as well as split cabled bows in every instance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,768 Posts
TurkeyTom asked,
If you have your cableguard adjusted correctly,and your bow tuned correctly,why would this make a difference on right/left misses?Maybe I dont understand.Can you elaberate for me?
Excellent question! The answer is not a simple one. But I would say that a cable guard bow definitely has a measureable amount of side-torque. Bows with more side torque are way more susceptible to grip inconsistencies. Here's why....
While it is true that a cable guard can be adjusted for minimal clearance, it is also true that the ever-present wear on a cable slide is caused by FRICTION. This friction robs energy and consequently, speed. This friction is the result of pulling the cables out of the way to obtain sighting and fletching clearance. So the answer to your question lies at the very heart of what a cable guard does. Let me explain. Most bows today are designed so that the cable groove on a cam is adjacent to and behind the string groove. The primary function of this cam is to unwind string as the bow is drawn, wrapping cable at a measured rate, causing the limbs to bend. A compound bow is a unique machine since it is capable of storing more ft.lbs of energy than we put into the system. The "arm" of leverage is the shape of the cam, and also the fact that the cam is not drilled in the center. The axle assembly IS the axis of rotation, but that rotation is not in the center of the cam. At rest, most of the "prebend" of the limbs can be noted just by plucking the string. In other words, most of the load is handled by the string. But as the bow is drawn to peak weight, the cam "falls" as the majority of the load is now on the cables. These cables are preventing the limbs from expelling their energy. The string holds everything in place, preventing that from happening. So if we measured the amount of load on the limb tips from the rest position to the fulldraw position, we would find marked differences. By using a cable guard we exacerbate the compression/tension in the limbs because we must move the cables (one cam, or two cam makes no difference) far enough out of the way to gain sighting and fletching clearance. So the first measureable torque in the system is the fact that at full draw the cables are responsible for handling the load. But if the string is on the centerline of the bow, then the cable groove is not. Next we really add to the torque when we install a cable guard. Will the bow still shoot "x"'s. Yes, it will, but only if we do everything exactly the same with our form. What a Fury X type shoot-thru does for you is eliminate the torque(NOT REDUCE, ELIMINATE!!!).
Now there is a difference between a spreader type shoot-thru and a Fury X type cam. That's because spreaders were originally intended for use on a single groove wheel, where string and cable occupied the same groove. These bows were smooth, but way too slow by today's standards. When used on a high performancesingle or hatchet type cam, however, only the added torque of the cable guard is eliminated. And we still have an undesireable condition with spreaders suspended within the upper half of the cable span. Spreaders tend to be make contact with the string, reduce speed, and they also tended to vibrate a lot. And we still have an unbalanced loading of the limb tips because the cam groove is adjacent to the string groove. So at full draw, cams lean. Some lean a little, some lean a lot. As a result, end servings wear, axles and bearings wear, cables stretch and bows become inconsistent over a short period of time. These detrimental effects can all be traced back to the same problem. THE AXLES ARE NOT PARALLEL AT FULL DRAW. The cams are not rotating on the same plane. The string groove ultimately determines the path of the bowstring upon release. The ideal condition for the axles would be parallel, right? With a Fury X cam system it is possible to keep the axles parallel throughout the entire shot sequence. This is a benefit because if the string is following a straighter path, and there is no cable guard induced torque, chances are the bow will deliver an arrow more consistently over a long period of time. Take, for example, tournament scores of well-seasoned veteran pros like Dee Wilde(Repeat World-record holder, 2003 World Team Member) Joe Kapp(perfect 560 Field round at 2002 Nationals), Doug Williams(two top-three finishes at NFAA OUTDOOR last two years), and Duane Price(first ever 300 30x in Vegas and first ever 600 in Atlantic City, as well as 600 120x at NFAA indoor and myself, (two 900's in Vegas in last three years and 600 120x this year at NFAA indoor. Scores don't lie. Four cable systems are actually very easy to tune. All cable adjustments can be made without a bow press. Because you have four cables instead of two, cable stretch is almost non-existant. Cable wear is a thing of the past. All I can say is keep your eye on the 04' line. You'll be very impressed! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
Those are excellent results quoted above. I don t question that a Xcam bow(or other shoot through) shoot well, and may have some theoretic advantages on paper. But as good as the success of Martin shooters with the Xacm has been, it is almost eclipsed by the success of Martin shooters using standard fury cams. Reo Wilde won 3 FITA world championships this year alone with a cable guard equiped Martin, won the 03 USAT Trials, shot 900 in vegas, 120X in KC...ROger Hoyle holds the FITA world record with regular cams as well. This is only a small portion of the Martin results. If I was to include a list of all those who won major events with a cable guard equiped bow from other manufacturers the results would be very much in favour of a cable guard equiped bow(this result would be because the vast majority of archer choose cable guards)
While I understand the principle of reduced torque via the xcam(or other shoot through), I do not think that it suits all archers. How big of an advantage is reduced torque in the system when the cables interfere with the bowarm and cause the archer to induce bowhand torque?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
I can't add a single thing to the information Jim gave except personal experience. I bought a Stratus Plus with the carbon +4 limbs the first year it came out. I had been shooting a ProStar with solid limbs and 2613 arrows and had it shooting fine but I wanted a low wrist bow. I couldn't get that Stratus to tune to save my soul! I tried evey adjustment I could think of. I finally took a look at things with someone else shooting the bow and noticed that at full draw, there was CONSIDERABLE cam lean/limb twist due to the side pull (torque) of the cable guard. I whipped up a set of split cables and presto, I could hardly get the bow NOT to tune. I was instantly convinced that with long split limbs which have nearly no torsional stability, some cam lean due to the side pull of the cable guard is inevitable. Hoyt has of course gone to the 3/4" wide limbs now which helps but I've had split cables on every bow I've owned ever since and wouldn't give them up for anything.

-Scot Heath
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,483 Posts
Jim,

Thanks. That was very informative!

Can I ask a slightly diferent question? One of the things I've been thinking about is how your body, and especially your bow arm, lines up behind the bow. There will always be a small force coming out of your bow hand, (almost straight out of tthe back of your hand), because your body lines up to one side of the bow. Could this small force be "balanced" by the force on the strings due to the cable guard?

Actually, trying to visuallize all the lines of force in a human holding a bow at full draw and releasing it is insane. It's amazing the things shoot as accurately as they do. I can only guess that it is because the arrow is on the string/bow for so short a time. Any longer and we'd never be able to hit anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
Stickinthemud, if you read all my posts you will find me in agreement with JDES900x earlier in this thread. The person I was disagreeing with was NegativeNorm. Heres my quote.

If the did, they would shoot them. For all the reason's JDES900X gave.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,859 Posts
Some reasons why people who have tried X cams and didnt like them :

1) Cable contact with bow arm - One of few valid cons - for some people
2) Some people strangely enough feel it necessary to feed the whole length of the arrow between the cables to load them (I dont know why when you can just back it in to the nock with no effort or fumbling????)
3) Dont really understand how to balance and tune one properly(happens often, never admitted to)

Now, the reasons I have shot nothing but x cams for the last 3 years:

1) My strings and cables last significantly longer than on bow w/ cable guard (one cams are especially hard on servings)
2) They stay timed/tuned longer (it takes a hell of a lot of abuse to throw four well made cables out of whack when they are doing the same job two can do)
3) Knowing #1 and #2 gives me aditional confidence over a bow w/ cable guard
4) bushings and axles do not receive as much wear, therefor last longer
5) Personal opinion - it makes sense! We strive for perfection in our setups and I have often thought that the cable guard was the single biggest "flaw" in the compound bow. I think it is unfortunate to have such fine modern equipment wiith so much design and research behind it in hopes of making the most efficient bow system and then put on a cable gaurd and pull the cables over to the side as if it were some kind of afterthought.
X cams/ Wedels are as symmetrical a system as exist on modern compounds.

Now, with that being said, are they more accurate? I dont necessarily think so - people shoot records all the time with a cable guard. Are they as accurate? Absolutely!
I dont know that knowing that my limbs and axles stay perfectly parallel throught the draw makes a mechanical difference in my accuracy, but I just like knowing it!
:)

Sean

PS, I'm not saying I wont ever shoot another bow with cable guard, but, to do so I would have to be very taken by a particular design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
ishoottrap. That is the same experience I had with my bow. before and after the shoot thru system was installed. Range Rat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,859 Posts
One thing I forgot to add to my last reply - regarding the title of this thread.

If you either think it is or you think it is'nt, you're right!
If you think you can, or you think you cant - you're right!
That cliche applies to all things archery IMO.

Sean
 
1 - 20 of 79 Posts
Top