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Discussion Starter #1
Talk to me about the new shoot through design. I have heard people say that it is more stable and causes less twisting during the shot. Is that true and where will it make a difference? What disadvantages does it have.

Anybody real excited about the shoot through design. I love Hoyt bows but am skeptical about jumping into the shoot through until I get feedback.
 

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Just got a Martin Cougar with fury-X cams(shoot through system.) The bow shoots great. One of the best bows I've ever shot. Haven't shot a field round with it yet though. Going to start indoor shooting soon. It groups really well.
Al
PS: Vitit our club site "www.blackknightbowbenders.com"
 

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A shoot through system should have no side torque

So why does Hoyt bother with a shoot through riser, then put a non-shoot through cable system on it? Oh yeah, York did that in 85 and it flopped. What's the point, Hoyt?

Jim G,
 

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Shoot Through Design

Well, take it for what it's worth but I built 4 bows like the one pictured below back in '86 and while I did well with them in local 3D's I did have some "problems". Now not to rain on anyone's parade, but you need to be aware of a few things that might happen. Loading the bow, be it from the front or from the back you might find yourself trying to "miss" the sight pins or that big target scope with the nock or the point of the arrow. I did it several times but at the time there were no fiber optic sight pins available like today. Bust one of those in a tournament and you'll be pissed let alone knocking out the lense of your very expensive scope. Brace height will have a factor also, the taller the brace, the more problems you MIGHT have. Like I said, take it for what it's worth and I hope this won't be that much of a problem for YOU but it was for me. I trully hope Hoyt does very well with the design and everyone breaks world records with them. Hoyt has some of the best shooters that are amazingly accurate and I'm sure they will do well in '04.
 

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A shoot through riser has no compatible characteristics to compare it to a shoot through HARNESS system.
They are two totally different birds!!!
A fury x or wedel cam bow has nothing in common with the shoot through riser!~

Hoyt has me completely stumped with this......?


Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I appreciate everyone's reply.

I can see that a shoot through riser would provide some difficulty with loading the arrow. Your point is well made walks with gi, that there may be risk to the pins on the site, but I'm not sure exactly where the site attaches, so that may not be a difficulty.

I was mostly interested in the physics of a shoot through riser. Does it provide better grouping, etc... What I really wanting to know is does it really make a difference over the current design? The current ultratec is pretty sweet, so what does a shoot through riser provide.

I don't know much about your bow walks with gi, but the hoyt looks dramatically different. Since I haven't held one I can't say, only from the pictures.

Thanks!:)
 

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Shoot thru riser design done with the TEC design makes for a very non-flexing riser, no flex in the cable guard area of the riser, and no energy storage in the flex of the riser due to full draw status, no flex on the compression side of the riser.

I have noticed shooters actually having more shooting problems on some bows with shoot through cable systems due to the fact that it is so neutral-biased that they have had MORE left-right problems at the target, at least with a cable guard you have some aim-torque resistantance present of some consistency.

I think Hoyt made the wiser choice...:)
 

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They haven't made the shoot thru cable system with this bow because they do not want to pay the person who originally designed and patented the system many years ago.:)

I too am a little confused by hoyts design. other than the benefits of making the riser stiffer, they seemed to have missed the point of a true shoot tru riser, (ie. perfect balance/weight distribution, no torque from a cable guard, eliminate cam lean), they might as well have fitted a strut brace you fit to high performance cars!!!
 
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Ron I agree with some of what you said but not on the bow but on the arrows rest set up. I have never shot real well with a bullet hole.

Although on paper the shoot through system (X-Wedel) should create a benefite I don't think that the average shooter could take advantage of it. The same with a shoot through riser. I think that Hoyt will sell them on the apperance more than any precived shooting advantage. With Hoyt having a left and right shoot through riser should eliminate any arrow loading problems
 

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Jim Sweeney, of Sacremento, California too the SABO recurve riser and made a new riser pattern that was LONGER and converted it over to a Compound bow with a Swiveling grip - - and he did this in the spring of 1973. Later that summer, Jim and I built 3 more of them, with 51" ATA and 11 inch brace heights - - I still have one of them in my house today.

So this shoot thru riser is absolutely NOTHING NEW, just improved upon. Of course the ones we built in 1973 were 4 wheelers and they used Jennings limbs and turnbuckles, so they didn't have a cable guard.

Jim later converted one of his shoot thru bows to a two-wheeler, again with great success. There are pictures of Jim's bow in the ArcheryHistory area along with , I think some other pics of the bows that he and I built back then.

I shot many, many 300 indoor scores and numerous 560 field rounds with these bows (old pre-1976 scoring), so there is no doubt they were shooters. I eventually took out the bearings of the swivel grip and went without the torque-free system, mostly by choice. The grips were custom made to fit my hand and grip style and were made out of a block of solid plexiglas.

field14:D
 

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One benefit of a shoot-through riser is that it will not twist as much when loaded. There is a thing called a "shear center" which causes asymmetrical shapes to twist as they are bent. (Try loading an extruded angle that has one end clamped down and you will see what I mean.)

Shoot through cables get rid of a side load (the cable guard) to accomplish a reduction in lateral (sideways) deflection. There is no side load with twist due to shear center effects.

The effect of both cable guards and non-shoot-through risers is that the lateral deflection undoes itself at launch, so you get sideways movement of the string.

Scott
 

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I remember Jim shooting that bow in Cobo hall around that time frame, or at least someone did. It was very different so it drew lots of attention.
 
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Scott in order for the shear effect to be eliminated both sides of the centre line would have to have the same mass and the string would have to travel down that path so as far as functionality to increase scores I don't see the shooting advantage but they sure made the shoot thru riser look really cool


Question for GT I saw an Onieda that certainly had TEC design to it. Is the TEC a patenable item? or does Hoyt patend each bow riser
 

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I can only think of two drawbacks to a Shoot-through riser - mass, and riser window size.

At this point I don't think mass is an issue with aluminum CNC machined risers - and Hoyt seems to know how to make risers with relatively thin/curvey features that are strong - as shown by Tec risers.

With the speeds they are offering I don't think the enclosed window size would be an issue, even outdoors at 90m...hard to say though until some shorter draw archer tries it out. There might be issues with some sight/scope setups as well, especially if the archer has form faults that push the pin/scope out farther than usual..

Unless someone like GT knows differently, I wouldn't think that a shoot-through riser would increase the strength of a riser for shooting by any order of magnitude - more like an incremental increase in strength. Not that it is much of an issue, I haven't heard of 2001-2003 Tec Hoyt's suffering from "bending issues" from shooting. Maybe it might solve some issues with pressing the bow. The only other apparent advantage I can see would be more surface edges to bleed off (damp) vibration.

I think style is what is really at issue, either you like the look of a Shoot-Through riser - or you don't. Personally I think it looks good, very unique with the "Tec" styling. I like the look of the Hoyt SST more than the Alternative or the PSE shoot-throughs..

-CG
 

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Scott in order for the shear effect to be eliminated both sides of the centre line would have to have the same
Right. A whispy shoot-through like the elites have will not eliminate the twist, but may reduce it considerably. Nothing HAS to be perfectly straight with a bow, it just has to be consistent.

I haven't heard of 2001-2003 Tec Hoyt's suffering from "bending issues" from shooting
You wouldn't. The bending that happens when a bow is drawn is "elastic" in that it is not permanent. All bows do it; nothing is perfectly rigid. When something bends permanently, it undergoes "plastic" bending.

Ideally, you want the riser to bend back top and bottom, just like the limbs do. A shoot-through riser allows that. The engineering term for twisting in these situations is "bad." ;)

Scott

PS: here's a link that shows some good shear center and bending pics:

http://www.ae.msstate.edu/~masoud/Teaching/SA2/chA14.2_text.html
 

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I don't think Hoyt claimed to come up with the idea? I just think they made the best one ever developed. Same with split limbs and maybe the cam and 1/2. - I'd say shoot it, if it's worth the bother of loading abnormally then go for it, if not they still have their conventional models. Something for everyone.
 

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beezaur;

"You wouldn't. The bending that happens when a bow is drawn is "elastic" in that it is not permanent. All bows do it; nothing is perfectly rigid. When something bends permanently, it undergoes "plastic" bending...Ideally, you want the riser to bend back top and bottom, just like the limbs do. A shoot-through riser allows that. The engineering term for twisting in these situations is "bad.""

So what are we talking about for "plastic bending" on a short piece of metal like a 2003 UT under shooting stress (cycling)...maybe 2-3mm, even if it was uneven stress I don't think it would make much difference...mind you I am just guessing..

;)

-CG
 

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Discussion Starter #18
centershot I agree with you. Just because Hoyt didn't come up with the idea isn't bad towards them. Making it better is what its all about. After all, no one has radically alterred the physics of a compound bow, they just improve upon the weaknesses.

Beezaur, my question is how much difference the shoot through riser will make. Although my bow might twist more, I would think it would twist consistently if I keep the same form. Once I have tuned my site in, I would have compensated for the twist, or whatever other aberration the bow will have. Does this make sense? I'm just wondering if reducing the twist, etc.. will make a difference at tournaments or accuracy.
 

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I honestly don't know how much bending and twisting is involved -- that all depends on what kind of alloy the riser is made out of and what is done to it after shaping, none of which I am privy to. But even if there is a very slight amount of twist at the end of the riser, there is maybe 3x that much at the limb tips (or more, depending on how the limbs react). When all this comes undone at release, there is a "whole lotta shakin' goin' on."

The small strip of metal that comprises Hoyt's shoot-through risers should provide a disproportionate amound of added stability -- very efficient use of material. I would expect less vibration and an overall more "thud-like" shot. If there really is a substantial amount of twist reduction, then it will go toward a more forgiving bow.

Just exactly how much improvement this new riser and pocket will make will be interesting to follow.

I think it is right that consistent twisting is the key, but if you eliminate the majority of the twist, you eliminate the need to be as consistent with certain components of your form.

I am yearning for the day when someone comes out with a completely slob-tolerant bow :)

Scott
 
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