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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have had two bows in my short archery life so far. Each was setup by a different archery shop. Both places set me up without D-loops. I didn't think anything of it, because I didn't know any better. So in the past 4 years I've been shooting off the string with my release.

I was trying to find other posts on AT but I couldn't find much.

Here is my setup
| |
| | -String
=== -Brass ring
<=========== - Nocked Arrow
=== -Rubber ring
<> -Release attaches here
| | -String
| |


So I was curious about how different releases work in regards to shooting off the string or off a d-loop. Would you have problems with any specific type of release (with my setup) ?

I'm looking at a Tru-Fire Hardcore or Edge for my next release. Do you see any problems that I would have with my current setup and either of those releases?
 

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Get a d-loop and get comfortable with it - you will fine tune your anchor's placement with it and induce infinitely less (read: SUPER minimal, if any) string torque as opposed to shooting from the center serving. Not to mention MUCH less wear on the center serving - easier to cut off and retie a loop than redo that serving.

Edit: most top end releases actually recommend the use of a d-loop exclusively and will not appropriately work shooting off the string and/or present a dangerous situation potentially if so. (torque can much more easily derail from off the string).
 
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Get a d-loop and get comfortable with it - you will fine tune your anchor's placement with it and induce infinitely less (read: SUPER minimal, if any) string torque as opposed to shooting from the center serving. Not to mention MUCH less wear on the center serving - easier to cut off and retie a loop than redo that serving.

Edit: most top end releases actually recommend the use of a d-loop exclusively and will not appropriately work shooting off the string and/or present a dangerous situation potentially if so. (torque can much more easily derail from off the string).
I agree with this a lot. There are so many advantages to a d-loop or catfish loop??...don't know if I got that name correct but you will see reference to it in the discussion or in the self work area. Form is everything...and with that I believe a d-loop will help you with good form. Hope this helps. Cheers!
Fred
 

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Socket Man
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There is absolutely no valid reason for you to continue shooting without a d-loop, get one on your bow and get it done now. I don't know why they didn't help you at the bow shops unless they saw a guy they could get a quick 20 bucks out of and get you out the door for some reason.
 

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Snafu
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I agree with the above. D-Loop is the way to go. You said that you have been shooting for four years. Have you changed the cables/strings yet? If not I would recommend it. Especially if you are going to put on a D-Loop.
 

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I have had 2 bows setup at Buck Rub Archery in Pewaukee and they are very anti D-Loop there. They've told me that the reasons are 1) serving wears under the d-loop from the d-loop rotating on the string and 2) small amount of speed loss from weight on the string and 3) potential failure of the D-loop. I'm no expert, so who am I to disagree with a pro shop that has been successful for 35 years? I've shot without a D-loop for over 5 years and my serving hardly wears at all from the release directly on the string. However, I had one True-Fire release that did not like this method. The head was large and boxy and would push the nock forward on the string just enough to sometimes pop the arrow off of the string. I switched to a Fletcher Fletch-Hunter release which is a strap-attached head rather than on a rod, so this eliminates the torque issue and the head is designed better so that the release does not contact the back of the nock over the eliminator button ("Rubber Ring" by OP). Personally, I thought D-loops were a hassle and I really like shooting my Bowtech Insanity CPXL directly from the string.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree with the above. D-Loop is the way to go. You said that you have been shooting for four years. Have you changed the cables/strings yet? If not I would recommend it. Especially if you are going to put on a D-Loop.
I put new strings on my current bow. That was 2 1/2 years ago. I've used the bow for hunting and 3D leagues since.

I don't know why they didn't help you at the bow shops unless they saw a guy they could get a quick 20 bucks out of and get you out the door for some reason.
I would think that if that were the case, they would have thrown one on and charged me for it.


...
So from what it sounds like, I should probably go to the archery shop and get one installed. Will this effect my shooting? Stance, anchor point, yada yada yada...
...
 

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Socket Man
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I see guys come in to the shop many times and they have a old bow that would cost more money to change the strings and do things right than the whole bow is worth and the shop guys usually do a simple patch work job to the one little issue and send the guy right back out the door. These bows are usually not worth enough to spend time trying to make them right.

If you have one of these bows either learn to do the work yourself and save some money and salvage the bow you have or get a new one and start over with things done correctly from the start.
 

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Shootin and Cussin
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I have had 2 bows setup at Buck Rub Archery in Pewaukee and they are very anti D-Loop there. They've told me that the reasons are 1) serving wears under the d-loop from the d-loop rotating on the string and 2) small amount of speed loss from weight on the string and 3) potential failure of the D-loop. I'm no expert, so who am I to disagree with a pro shop that has been successful for 35 years? I've shot without a D-loop for over 5 years and my serving hardly wears at all from the release directly on the string. However, I had one True-Fire release that did not like this method. The head was large and boxy and would push the nock forward on the string just enough to sometimes pop the arrow off of the string. I switched to a Fletcher Fletch-Hunter release which is a strap-attached head rather than on a rod, so this eliminates the torque issue and the head is designed better so that the release does not contact the back of the nock over the eliminator button ("Rubber Ring" by OP). Personally, I thought D-loops were a hassle and I really like shooting my Bowtech Insanity CPXL directly from the string.
I'd be finding a new shop. These guys are wrong on every point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have had 2 bows setup at Buck Rub Archery in Pewaukee and they are very anti D-Loop there. They've told me that the reasons are 1) serving wears under the d-loop from the d-loop rotating on the string and 2) small amount of speed loss from weight on the string and 3) potential failure of the D-loop. I'm no expert, so who am I to disagree with a pro shop that has been successful for 35 years? I've shot without a D-loop for over 5 years and my serving hardly wears at all from the release directly on the string. However, I had one True-Fire release that did not like this method. The head was large and boxy and would push the nock forward on the string just enough to sometimes pop the arrow off of the string. I switched to a Fletcher Fletch-Hunter release which is a strap-attached head rather than on a rod, so this eliminates the torque issue and the head is designed better so that the release does not contact the back of the nock over the eliminator button ("Rubber Ring" by OP). Personally, I thought D-loops were a hassle and I really like shooting my Bowtech Insanity CPXL directly from the string.
Buckrub is where I got my current bow setup.
 

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I see guys come in to the shop many times and they have a old bow that would cost more money to change the strings and do things right than the whole bow is worth and the shop guys usually do a simple patch work job to the one little issue and send the guy right back out the door. These bows are usually not worth enough to spend time trying to make them right.

If you have one of these bows either learn to do the work yourself and save some money and salvage the bow you have or get a new one and start over with things done correctly from the start.
So because his bow is from 2009 it isn't worth new strings??? I think your little rant has more to do with you wanting to sell new bows than giving advice.
 

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So because his bow is from 2009 it isn't worth new strings??? I think your little rant has more to do with you wanting to sell new bows than giving advice.
Barking up the wrong tree thinking Padgett isn't trying to help archers. He's personally offered me a load of free advice, as have numerous others here, he's just stating a fact that most bow shops will see bows from long ago and do the bare minimum to get people out the door since they're typically more time consuming at less profit to the business....
 

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I have had two bows in my short archery life so far. Each was setup by a different archery shop. Both places set me up without D-loops. I didn't think anything of it, because I didn't know any better. So in the past 4 years I've been shooting off the string with my release.

I was trying to find other posts on AT but I couldn't find much.



Here is my setup
| |
| | -String
=== -Brass ring
<=========== - Nocked Arrow
=== -Rubber ring
<> -Release attaches here
| | -String
| |


So I was curious about how different releases work in regards to shooting off the string or off a d-loop. Would you have problems with any specific type of release (with my setup) ?

I'm looking at a Tru-Fire Hardcore or Edge for my next release. Do you see any problems that I would have with my current setup and either of those releases?
Well, up until d-loops became popular, most all of us shot with the rope around the string with an eliminator button (the rubber thingy you mention) under the nock. Many of us even shot without the eliminator button - - and shot well that way.

In fact, for me, all of my 60X NFAA blue face 300's and ALL of my perfect Vegas 450 rounds and most of my Perfect 300 vegas rounds were shot with the release rope around the string and up against the arrow nock!

TODAY, however, if you are going to do this, you have to pay special attention to the type of nock you are using. Many of the new nocks out there are designed to be shot with a D-loop ONLY...The Gold Tip Pin nocks specifically tell you D-LOOP ONLY! I also, wouldn't shoot Bohning PIN nocks with a rope around the string type of setup either.

Easton G-nocks, H-nocks, Beiters, and some others are fine if you don't shoot a d-loop with them...but those that are designed for d-loops are NOT SAFE to be shot with the release rope below the nock and around the string.

There is nothing wrong with shooting without a d-loop as long as you make sure the arrow nocks are designed so that this can safely be done.

Now, as far as releases go. I personally wouldn't shoot a caliper release without the rubber eliminator button between the arrow nock and the release body.

For Hinge style releases, there is a BIG difference in how you set the hinge for rope around the string or for a d-loop. If you don't know what you are doing, and do the wrong thing, you can end up in BIG trouble shooting a hinge with rope around the string - - that has been set to shoot with a d-loop.
If you are shooting a hinge that was set up for rope around the string, you are going to struggle big time to get the hinge to trip. In this situation, especially if using the OLDER models of Stan hinges, you will have to set that moon nearly on the "edge" to get it to fire, and you will have to pull pretty hard even then.
The new stans have a different pivot point and are designed so you don't have to have them on the edge, AND you can still shoot them with rope around - - but not at the same setting as that used for a d-loop.

With regard to thumb triggers, Those don't seem to be so sensitive to rope around or hook to the d-loop.

Hope this helps.

field14
 

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With regard to thumb triggers, Those don't seem to be so sensitive to rope around or hook to the d-loop.

Hope this helps.

field14
Some thumb triggers (notably some Stans) specifically say not to shoot without a d-loop. As have the marketing manager who posts around here periodically for them.
 

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Some thumb triggers (notably some Stans) specifically say not to shoot without a d-loop. As have the marketing manager who posts around here periodically for them.
There are some thumb trigger releases out there that do NOT have the option of putting a rope onto the release aid to hook around the string. Thanks for reminding me about that.
I agree...IF you try to just load up the release directly to the bowstring WITHOUT using a rope!

The pinky triggers and the particular thumb releases that I have do have the option of using a rope on the release to hook around the string in the setup you define.
I've messed around with my FailSafe II by Dean Pridgen and simply hooked up a rope that is attached to the release aid, hooked it around the bow string below the bottom knot on the d-loop...and used arrows with g-nocks on them and the H-nocks, too, and it works just fine.

I'd NEVER, however, just like I said about calipers, hook the release directly to the bowstring and then directly below the nock anyways. Not good, IMHO.

If your thumb trigger release doesn't have accommodation to put on a rope, then don't use it without a d-loop.
 

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Regarding the two releases you mention, A quick look at the Tru-fire web site shows the hardcore to be a hook type release and the edge to be a double caliper type. I personally have never seen the hook type release used directly off the serving. I would contact Tru-fire and get their recommendation on using the hardcore if you decide to continue to shoot off the serving. I have seen the caliper type used by folks shooting directly off the serving.
The deciding factor for me as to shooting off the serving or using a D-loop has always been the axle to axle of the bow and the draw length. On short bows, the arrow simply pinches off the string if you do not use a D-loop and have other than a short draw length. I have seen bows set up with way too short a draw length to get around using a D-loop and unfortunartely the arrows chosen and cut accordingly. It took adding a D-loop, stiffer arrows and longer arrows to get one of my hunting buddies set up right.
If your bow is long enough and your draw length is appropriate, then off the serving or with a D-loop is really a choice of what you are more comfortable with. Some folks are more confident in their ability to hook up to the string under the pressure of a quick shot at a monster buck. Personally, I use a D-loop as my bow is too short to do otherwise. I also figure if I have to shoot that fast, I'd rather let the big guy walk than risk a hurried possibly only wounding shot and the heartache of finding a rotting trophy later. Just my thoughts. Good luck.
 
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Well, up until d-loops became popular, most all of us shot with the rope around the string with an eliminator button (the rubber thingy you mention) under the nock. Many of us even shot without the eliminator button - - and shot well that way.

In fact, for me, all of my 60X NFAA blue face 300's and ALL of my perfect Vegas 450 rounds and most of my Perfect 300 vegas rounds were shot with the release rope around the string and up against the arrow nock!

TODAY, however, if you are going to do this, you have to pay special attention to the type of nock you are using. Many of the new nocks out there are designed to be shot with a D-loop ONLY...The Gold Tip Pin nocks specifically tell you D-LOOP ONLY! I also, wouldn't shoot Bohning PIN nocks with a rope around the string type of setup either.

Easton G-nocks, H-nocks, Beiters, and some others are fine if you don't shoot a d-loop with them...but those that are designed for d-loops are NOT SAFE to be shot with the release rope below the nock and around the string.

There is nothing wrong with shooting without a d-loop as long as you make sure the arrow nocks are designed so that this can safely be done.

Now, as far as releases go. I personally wouldn't shoot a caliper release without the rubber eliminator button between the arrow nock and the release body.

For Hinge style releases, there is a BIG difference in how you set the hinge for rope around the string or for a d-loop. If you don't know what you are doing, and do the wrong thing, you can end up in BIG trouble shooting a hinge with rope around the string - - that has been set to shoot with a d-loop.
If you are shooting a hinge that was set up for rope around the string, you are going to struggle big time to get the hinge to trip. In this situation, especially if using the OLDER models of Stan hinges, you will have to set that moon nearly on the "edge" to get it to fire, and you will have to pull pretty hard even then.
The new stans have a different pivot point and are designed so you don't have to have them on the edge, AND you can still shoot them with rope around - - but not at the same setting as that used for a d-loop.

With regard to thumb triggers, Those don't seem to be so sensitive to rope around or hook to the d-loop.

Hope this helps.

field14
This was probably the best answer to the topic at hand as most of us addressed the fact of shooting with a d-loop and the advantages of it. Who else shoots without one and does his setup sound reasonable? I used to but I have not shot this way in a while. I used a brass nock above the arrow nock and nothing below it...just the jaws of the release and that always worked well. I would think the rubber nock would cause nock pinch...IMHO. And the release I used was a winn freeflight. Hope this helps. Cheers!
Fred
 

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i use to shoot off the string with caliper releases (no rope) using the exact set up the OP describes. the only issue i ever had was every now and then the brass nock would decide to start moving around, usually up, little by little. i finally accepted the "new" technology and started shooting with a D-loop. for me the D-loop is far superior to the brass nock/eliminator button set up. the D-loop does not pinch the arrows nock and influence how the arrow lays on the rest. also like others mentioned, the D-loop also drastically reduces the chance of string damage caused by a release. D-loops are cheaper and easier to replace than strings. one last thing, knock on wood, since i have been shooting with a D-loop (around the turn of the century...lol) i have not had any "D-loop failures".
 

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Shooting off the string was not that bad of an idea 35 years ago when even hunting bows were pretty much all 45"+ ata. A lot of things have changed since then to now make the d-loop a better mousetrap for most people, most bows, and most releases, imho.

I did notice that Bill Weinke shoots off the string with a long draw hunting setup, so it's not like it CAIN'T be done successfully. Just keep the release head small, and use one that is not rotated to torque the string.

If you choose ignore the d-loop advice, recommend adding some serving above the brass nockset to prevent it from ever moving up the string. Also, practice/learn to automatically pop the arrow nock back onto the string after a letdown---if not already faithfully doing so. Failure to do this can result in an expensive dry fire.
 

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Field14
The other thing that needs mentioning about when we shot off the string was that the ATA's were what, 12"-18" longer than we have now? So there was a much more relaxed string angle....

Dang... beat me to it..... see what happens when you type and get side tracked!
 
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