[Viper1]

Guys - I posted this on another forum, thought it might do some good here.

Still convinced that "strength training" for archery is a tell-tail sign of a rank amateur.

If you are strength training to be able to pull a 100# bow or even a 50# bow, all it means is that you will be able to draw a bow of that weight, NOT that you'll be able to shoot it, as in hitting something with it.

Even shot trainers, like the old Formaster or newer versions, while they can be used to teach certain techniques, as soon as a real target is being "aimed" at, things change pretty quickly. A different part of the brain goes into priority when "a hit or miss" situation is presented. That's also why "blank bale" training has to be used with some caution and transitioning back to a real target has to occur as soon as possible.

An argument can even be made that being able to muscle a bow may actually work against you.

Viper1 out.

 

[Beendare]

I do some cable exercises to keep the main muscle groups in my back stronger..... but I get what you mean Viper.

 

[Viper1]

Been -

I've worked out 5 to 6 days a week since High School, over 40 years ago, but it has nothing to do with archery. In fact, I will not do a back workout before a shooting session. I'm not against strength training in the least, just that for archery, beyond the 15' crowd, you're not going to beat actually shooting. If for no other reason than without the feedback of how the arrow flies and where it ends up, it's all to easy to develop a false sense of security.

Viper1 out.

 

[3finger]

Guys - I posted this on another forum, thought it might do some good here.

Still convinced that "strength training" for archery is a tell-tail sign of a rank amateur.

If you are strength training to be able to pull a 100# bow or even a 50# bow, all it means is that you will be able to draw a bow of that weight, NOT that you'll be able to shoot it, as in hitting something with it.

Even shot trainers, like the old Formaster or newer versions, while they can be used to teach certain techniques, as soon as a real target is being "aimed" at, things change pretty quickly. A different part of the brain goes into priority when "a hit or miss" situation is presented. That's also why "blank bale" training has to be used with some caution and transitioning back to a real target has to occur as soon as possible.

An argument can even be made that being able to muscle a bow may actually work against you.

Viper1 out.

At some point especially for the person who shoots target archery becomes a mental game. Key to success is relaxation of both mind and body which equates to strength both mind and body. Strength training specifically for archery is a two edges sword in that not only does it promote relaxation at full draw, it promotes confidence in your archery ability thus enhancing mental relaxation. Physical excercise is good for mind and body. We all know that or should. I've spent a lot of time on the weight room over the years and can honestly say that that physical training had much more of positive influence on my archery from a mental perspective than it did from a phisical perspective. To focus on physical training when the majority of the challenge is mental seems a bit misguided. In my experience Archery practice can be better describes as Archery Training and is best accomplished by shooting the bow with a focus on both the mental and phyisical aspects.

 

[Brian N]

Some of you already know my almost daily (COVID restricted) routine: Shooting in the morning, exercise in the afternoon and when weather permits a daily swim of about 1/2 mile. The exercise is for my overall good health and well being. The swim is a added bonus in the summer, as I really enjoy it. The exercise is not archery specific; not my goal. I'm sure my exercise regimen helps muscle strength, but not as much as actually pulling back a bow (for those muscles used specifically to pull and hold the bow) And, don't forget muscle "memory". As Tony said, with exercise there is no "feedback". A general exercise routine will not train your brain. I do squats and leg lifts all year long to keep my legs in shape for skiing. But, when it comes to building strength in the legs (and building skill), specific to skiing, nothing replaces time on the slopes. I believe the same about archery. Its great to exercise, but you need the real thing. As for blank bale, think about this; does a major league pitcher build up, or even warm up by throwing at a white wall? To me shooting your bow at a blank white bale is the same thing. A couple of arrows maybe, then move on to a target. YMMV

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

Still convinced that "strength training" for archery is a tell-tail sign of a rank amateur.

Jealousy makes for a bad cologne.

Muscle strength and endurance as well as cardiovascular exersize are a benifit to ANY athelte in ANY sport archery included.

 

[Brian N]

Donnie - I agree that good overall muscle strength, cardiovascular endurance, good lung function are important to any sport. And the aforementioned certainly help in execution of sport specific activity. I think what Viper was getting at is a naive belief that you can train for heavy draw weight bows (and proficiency with a heavy draw bow) mainly through weight training. Correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

The issue that Viper is addressing is that it is common in traditional archery for folks to talk about building up strength so they can shoot heavier bows, especially when starting out. The objective becomes building very specific strength, that needed to pull a bow, rather than developing good mechanics. There is a misguided perception that heavier is better and that the purpose of learning is to pull heavier bows.

Fitness and strength is important for good performance, but the focus should not be limited to one functional area or muscle group. Maintaining good muscle balance is important since muscles work in concert with each other. I have gone through months of therapy to address a muscle imbalance in my shoulder from the repetitive motion of archery. I had overdeveloped my rhomboid and tightened my neck muscle on my bow arm side. The result was my shoulder was permanently pulled up and forward while you want your shoulders down and back when you shoot. Forcing my shoulders down and back made it worse. The problem was fixed but I have to keep up the exercise regiment from therapy if I want to reduce the chance of recurrence.

Archery can be a problem because it is a repetitive motion activity that often results in physical issues and injury. Good overall fitness will help mitigate some of these issues. Focusing on archery strength alone may actually make it worse.

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

Donnie - I agree that good overall muscle strength, cardiovascular endurance, good lung function are important to any sport. And the aforementioned certainly help in execution of sport specific activity. I think what Viper was getting at is a naive belief that you can train for heavy draw weight bows (and proficiency with a heavy draw bow) mainly through weight training. Correct me if I am mistaken.

You get better at shooting a bow by shooting a bow. You get better at swinging a bat by swinging a bat. You get better running form from running.
There is a point in all those things where you just won't increase in poundage (with proper form) your speed and bat weight just won't increase any more, you will flatline and not get any faster on the track.
Weight training, exercise, alternative activities are how you get past those points.
Growing the shoulders, lats, traps will absolutely increase the amount of draw weight you can handle with good form.

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

The issue that Viper is addressing is that it is common in traditional archery for folks to talk about building up strength so they can shoot heavier bows. The objective becomes building very specific strength, that needed to pull a bow, rather than developing good mechanics. Building up to heavier bows because the focus due to the misguided perception that heavier is better.

Fitness and strength is important for good performance, but the focus has to be right. Muscle balance is important. I have gone through months of therapy to address a muscle imbalance in my shoulder from the repetitive motion of archery. I had overdeveloped my rhomboid and tightened my neck muscle on my bow arm side. The result was my shoulder was permanently pulled up and forward while you want your shoulders down and back when you shoot. Forcing my shoulders down and back made it worse.

Archery can be a problem because it is a repetitive motion activity that often results in physical issues and injury. Good overall fitness will help mitigate some of these issues. Focusing on archery strength alone may actually make it worse.

Personally I lift weights for strength and use bands for draw specific strength. But I'm also working around years of sports and other injuries specifically to the back and shoulders.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

You get better at shooting a bow by shooting a bow. You get better at swinging a bat by swinging a bat. You get better running form from running.

This is a common miss-conception. I can swing a bat a thousand times but if I am swinging with my arms instead of my core, I will not get better.

Take a sport like golf. You can hit 200 balls a day and eventually figure out how to do okay, if you have enough talent, but you will hit a ceiling if you do not learn to execute correctly.

Running is no different. I remember reading a coaching guide many years ago that said if you have two players with equal speed, choose the one with the worse form, because you can teach him to run faster.

If you want to see the impact of not learning correctly, watch Lonzo Ball shoot a basketball and look at his results. He shoots like a high schooler who learned on baskets that were too high and a ball that was too heavy. Sadly, I saw a lot of that coaching basketball for years which is why I taught my son on low baskets with lighter balls.

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

This is a common miss-conception. I can swing a bat a thousand times but if I am swinging with my arms instead of my core, I will not get better.

Take a sport like golf. You can hit 200 balls a day and eventually figure out how to do okay, if you have enough talent, but you will hit a ceiling if you do not learn to execute correctly.

Running is no different. I remember reading a coaching guide many years ago that said if you have two players with equal speed, choose the one with the worse form, because you can teach him to run faster.

If you want to see the impact of not learning correctly, watch Lonzo Ball shoot a basketball and look at his results. He shoots like a high schooler who learned on baskets that were too high and a ball that was too heavy. Sadly, I saw a lot of that coaching basketball for years which is why I taught my son on low baskets with lighter balls.

Hopefully you teach him you swing a bat with your legs and hips and not your core....

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

Hopefully you teach him you swing a bat with your legs and hips and not your core....

That is a more accurate statement and just helps make my point. And the same applies to shooting a bow. It is a whole body activity. Some folks can accidently figure out how to do it, either by talent or luck. Others will just keep refining poor mechanics until they hit a plateau.

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

That is a more accurate statement and just helps make my point. And the same applies to shooting a bow. It is a whole body activity. Some folks can accidently figure out how to do it, either by talent or luck. Others will just keep refining poor mechanics until they hit a plateau.

I think we are crossing streams. Or perhaps its on my end. I'll clarify. My statement was that with proper form and instruction doing activity will show rapid improvement and increases in the ability to handle weight and or develop speed and then slow to the point where you do not and can not get any better in those areas. Thats where weights and cardio or other activities come in to play.

 

[Viper1]

Guys -

Now, this might not be what a lot of people here are looking for, but shooting a bow above "average" (or the 17.3 yard) level is more a kin to playing a violin that doing a bench press. And Steve (Hank) is correct, the question of how to increase poundage comes up so often, both in "bow hunting" and target forums, that it really doses show a lack of understanding. Especially since how to do it safely and effectively has been discussed a number of times. And the fact is, beyond a certain point, everyone will reach a weight that they can pull, but not shoot effectively.

Donnie -

In certain cases, that may be correct, but not here. In most (but not all) cases,when draw weight becomes a factor, you've already missed the boat. IOWs, adding 10# to your draw weight won't make you a better archer, refining your shot sequence and execution will. All the back and shoulder work in the world isn't going to help and if over done, might well hurt.

Viper1 out.

 

[GrainofPain]

Jealousy makes for a bad cologne.

Muscle strength and endurance as well as cardiovascular exersize are a benifit to ANY athelte in ANY sport archery included.

Exactly. When is being strong a disadvantage lol

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

Guys -

Now, this might not be what a lot of people here are looking for, but shooting a bow above "average" (or the 17.3 yard) level is more a kin to playing a violin that doing a bench press. And Steve (Hank) is correct, the question of how to increase poundage comes up so often, both in "bow hunting" and target forums, that it really doses show a lack of understanding. Especially since how to do it safely and effectively has been discussed a number of times. And the fact is, beyond a certain point, everyone will reach a weight that they can pull, but not shoot effectively.

Donnie -

In certain cases, that may be correct, but not here. In most (but not all) cases,when draw weight becomes a factor, you've already missed the boat. IOWs, adding 10# to your draw weight won't make you a better archer, refining your shot sequence and execution will. All the back and shoulder work in the world isn't going to help and if over done, might well hurt.

Viper1 out.

If a person can pull more weight they can shoot a heavier arrow with a flatter trajectory that sheds velocity slower has more momentum on game for penetration and does better with external variables.
They can hold a position longer, the heart rate and breathing is steady, slower, and pulling the bow does not exite the heart rate as much.
All this translates to a bettet archer.

Frankly you come across as horribly jealous.

I'm a big guy. Ive had to rehab injuries. I have permanent issues thst will one day require replacing joints.
I can tell you first hand adding muscle mass to the shoulder girdle and using bands to "beef up" in specific motions and holding positions ABSOLUTELY will increase the amount of weight you can draw and hold with correct form.

You sound like a guy who looked at Joe Rogan and told your girlfriend how useless his shoulder muscles are and how silly his 80lb bow is while you secretly wished you were him. Lol.

 

[CAPTJJ]

Stop feeding this bowling troll, he has been arguing with people on AT incessantly and now he has found the traditional forum. We don't need compound guys that are using mechanical advantage to reduce holding weight arguing here.

Hank and Viper are both well respected and know what they are talking about.

 

[Donniewholikesbowling]

Stop feeding this bowling troll, he has been arguing with people on AT incessantly and now he has found the traditional forum. We don't need compound guys that are using mechanical advantage to reduce holding weight arguing here.

Hank and Viper are both well respected and know what they are talking about.

I grew up on Fred Bear hunting videos, a home made longbow and graduated to a glass recurve and probably had more shots off with those bows before I hit my teens than most people have in a lifetime.
I don't claim to be an expert on anything but I do have plenty of experience in archery and sports. Enough to know the blanket statement made is horribly incorrect.
Don't call people names from a distance. It makes people think that you lack the ability to back it up in person.

 

[GCook]

The type of shooting target archery requires isn't a high poundage game.
Cape buffalo on the other hand is.

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