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I am writing this after reading multiple threads regarding "high fences" and "canned hunts". Let me tell you where I am coming from. I do not live in Texas currently. I reside in North Louisiana. I currently hunt in Louisiana and Arkansas. I did grow up in Texas. I lived in the lone star state for 21 years and learned to hunt their. With that said let me make some factual statements about Texas that might shed some light on the situation.

The Eastern third of Texas is piney woods. Large tracts of land most often managed for timber. The far western part of the state is desert/ mountain country. The panhandle is part of the plains. That leaves about 50% of the state. This 50% is where the vast majority of the top class hunting takes place. My first experience with this country was in my early teens. I had traditionally hunted the eastern piney woods and was accustomed to hunting high in a climbing stand. I arrived at a small ranch (10,000 acres) that we leased. Upon my arrival I saw what appeared to be a total waste of money. I saw three things Mesquite, Cactus, and a hell of alot of white rock. THAT WAS IT!!!! As far as the eye could see, 5 foot tall mesquite, plant and bugs that would bite or sting, and rock. Now I don't claim to be the best tracker but I would like to see someone find a deer travel route in ROCK!!!! This causes and unusal problem. Deer travel routes are not as pronounced and contained as they are in the midwest farm country or in Woodlands along the east coast. This mandates the use of different hunting tactics. One is baiting. If you don't bait you are cutting your odds by 75% ( This is just an estimation, you are willing to waste your time and verify this yourself. Pick a cactus and sit down). This is how hunting is done in Texas and successfully at that. You find and area with thick cover and water and put out corn. If you think you can hunt otherwise I suggest you make an appointment to give it a try.

Next is the high fence. I personally have never hunted a high fence. I would like to get a chance at some of those exotics though. Let me explain to you what I have witnessed. Their was a 6 foot fence that ran the entire legth of the lease I was on in Texas. This was to deter the migration of illegal alens. I have witnessed many times deer jump this fence. I don't mean run and jump. I have seen deer stand "flat footed" and jump completely over this fence. Six feet now. I don't see any problem with a deer jumping an 8 foot fence for sure. So I am not convinced that a whitetail can even be contained in a high fence. Now as for the exotics, if I bought a bunch of exotics animals I would not want them wondering off to someone elses property to get shot. Now if that offends you and you don't like fenced hunting then don't do it but that is how it is.

Now you are still thinking that these animals are fenced....so....."poor little animals have no where to run". Let me just add this. A small ranch in Texas would be 10,000 acres, a medium sized ranch could easily reach close to 100,000 acres, and the large ranches are not even measured in acres they are measured in SQUARE MILES. TEXAS IS LARGER THAN SOME COUNTRIES. You can not imagine the size of these fenced ranches. The ranch itself is larger than the animals range of travel. An exotic in these fenced areas might not even see a fence it's entire life.

Just keep in prospective that many of those complaining about high fences and exotics have no idea what it as all about and have not been hunting in one of the greatest whitetail hunting areas in the country.

I love hunting travel routes along feilds in big timber. I love hunting along corn fields (hmmmm is that baiting). I also love to hunt in Texas. Hell I just love to hunt. Anyway and Anywhere. IT IS ALL GOOD!!! Let's just all hunt. You may not want to participate in one particular method of hunting but as for me.....I will take any chance I can get to hunt anywhere I can.

good luck this year and hope you bag a big one.
 

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Buckskin,

GREAT POST!!!!!:) You know most of these people would not have a problem hunting on an island or an area that is impassiable, but they fail to understand what you said
An exotic in these fenced areas might not even see a fence it's entire life.
. Again excellent post:)
 

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Buckskin73 said:
I am writing this after reading multiple threads regarding "high fences" and "canned hunts". Let me tell you where I am coming from. I do not live in Texas currently. I reside in North Louisiana. I currently hunt in Louisiana and Arkansas. I did grow up in Texas. I lived in the lone star state for 21 years and learned to hunt their. With that said let me make some factual statements about Texas that might shed some light on the situation.

The Eastern third of Texas is piney woods. Large tracts of land most often managed for timber. The far western part of the state is desert/ mountain country. The panhandle is part of the plains. That leaves about 50% of the state. This 50% is where the vast majority of the top class hunting takes place. My first experience with this country was in my early teens. I had traditionally hunted the eastern piney woods and was accustomed to hunting high in a climbing stand. I arrived at a small ranch (10,000 acres) that we leased. Upon my arrival I saw what appeared to be a total waste of money. I saw three things Mesquite, Cactus, and a hell of alot of white rock. THAT WAS IT!!!! As far as the eye could see, 5 foot tall mesquite, plant and bugs that would bite or sting, and rock. Now I don't claim to be the best tracker but I would like to see someone find a deer travel route in ROCK!!!!
Rock, indeed! Even after a good rain, it takes a bloodhound to track a deer through some of that stuff. Good point!

This causes and unusal problem. Deer travel routes are not as pronounced and contained as they are in the midwest farm country or in Woodlands along the east coast. This mandates the use of different hunting tactics. One is baiting. If you don't bait you are cutting your odds by 75% ( This is just an estimation, you are willing to waste your time and verify this yourself. Pick a cactus and sit down). This is how hunting is done in Texas and successfully at that. You find and area with thick cover and water and put out corn. If you think you can hunt otherwise I suggest you make an appointment to give it a try.
Amen!

Next is the high fence. I personally have never hunted a high fence. I would like to get a chance at some of those exotics though. Let me explain to you what I have witnessed. Their was a 6 foot fence that ran the entire legth of the lease I was on in Texas. This was to deter the migration of illegal alens. I have witnessed many times deer jump this fence. I don't mean run and jump. I have seen deer stand "flat footed" and jump completely over this fence. Six feet now. I don't see any problem with a deer jumping an 8 foot fence for sure. So I am not convinced that a whitetail can even be contained in a high fence. Now as for the exotics, if I bought a bunch of exotics animals I would not want them wondering off to someone elses property to get shot. Now if that offends you and you don't like fenced hunting then don't do it but that is how it is.
Yes! Whitetails have been known to jump an 8' "deer fence." The purpose is not as much to keep deer in, but to help keep inferior deer out. It is a management tool. Works pretty good if I do say so myself.

Now you are still thinking that these animals are fenced....so....."poor little animals have no where to run". Let me just add this. A small ranch in Texas would be 10,000 acres, a medium sized ranch could easily reach close to 100,000 acres, and the large ranches are not even measured in acres they are measured in SQUARE MILES. TEXAS IS LARGER THAN SOME COUNTRIES. You can not imagine the size of these fenced ranches. The ranch itself is larger than the animals range of travel. An exotic in these fenced areas might not even see a fence it's entire life.
Yes. Whitetails too, for that matter. Their home ranges only consist of 3000-4000 acres on a good day.

Just keep in prospective that many of those complaining about high fences and exotics have no idea what it as all about and have not been hunting in one of the greatest whitetail hunting areas in the country.
And that is what is so infuriating. They've never seen it or experienced it, but they condemn it.

You ever see that commercial with the Indian crying when the trash hits his feet on the road side? That's how I feel. My heart weeps that there is so much cannibalism amoung hunters.

I love hunting travel routes along feilds in big timber. I love hunting along corn fields (hmmmm is that baiting). I also love to hunt in Texas. Hell I just love to hunt. Anyway and Anywhere. IT IS ALL GOOD!!! Let's just all hunt. You may not want to participate in one particular method of hunting but as for me.....I will take any chance I can get to hunt anywhere I can.

good luck this year and hope you bag a big one.
I love you! Good hunting to you too, sir. SALUTE! :)
 

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O.K. I must jump in. I don't think most people who bash and say that hunting (*canned hunts) are easy, really mean that its an easy score. What I feel , and it probably goes toward the way alot of people feel.

You guys created an artifficial deer world, and there is resenment toward that. The real problem arises when you claim to shoot such monster bucks and want so much recognition for it. Most people all want to shoot a monster buck, but most hunt there own state and on public land. There chances are only as good as the area they hunt. So to compete with farm raised deer is a slap in the face. That is the problem. Not with the baiting as much.


You can say what you want, but when there is a big obsticle restricting movement, and you supplement the feeding to grow larger deer and to maintain a larger herd, you have just become a deer farmer. And now to hunt your deer and gloat about the trophy ("that was easier to come by, from the increased and controlled herd") now that sucks. I
 

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madarchery said:
O.K. I must jump in. I don't think most people who bash and say that hunting (*canned hunts) are easy, really mean that its an easy score. What I feel , and it probably goes toward the way alot of people feel.

You guys created an artifficial deer world, and there is resenment toward that. The real problem arises when you claim to shoot such monster bucks and want so much recognition for it. Most people all want to shoot a monster buck, but most hunt there own state and on public land. There chances are only as good as the area they hunt. So to compete with farm raised deer is a slap in the face. That is the problem. Not with the baiting as much.


You can say what you want, but when there is a big obsticle restricting movement, and you supplement the feeding to grow larger deer and to maintain a larger herd, you have just become a deer farmer. And now to hunt your deer and gloat about the trophy ("that was easier to come by, from the increased and controlled herd") now that sucks. I
Well I don't hunt trophy whitetail, can't afford it. Doubt if I would even if I could afford it. I'd rather spend the limited funds I have to hunt several times throughout the year. But I do support anyone's right to do so if they wish. I can assure you in the ranches I have hunted for exotics (more hunts for the same money) the hunting is as dificult as any other area of Texas.
As far as bragging on the antlers, why not, sure the deer was fed better but so are the northern deer, how do you think they get to weigh 200 pounds.
No one is trying to enter the high fence trophys in P&Y or B&C, they even have a seperate division in the local big buck contests.
So what is wrong with someone who can afford it shooting a big deer, and bragging about it. The deer was not tied to a post or led out on a leash. If it were I would have a problem with it also.
As far as it being fair chase, define that term....

To me it means, if the damn thing can disappear and hide from me then it was a fair chase. does it matter if I can come back tomorrow with a reasonable expectation of finding the same animal. Can't you do the same on the place you hunt. Or do you run them so hard they leave the county. Kinda like hide and seek, isn't that what you try to do. Find the deer and shoot it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
madarchery

I respect your opinion. All good points but here is the way I see it though. Texas ranchers have done alot of work. They spend alot of money on food and habitat improvements to increase the trophy potential of an already outstanding genetic standard in a native deer herd. I don't see the problem with that. I have tried that in Louisiana with very little success. The lack of success is based two conditions (in my opinion). One is the lack of land available to manage. 400 acres won't allow herd management and my little income won't accomodate my grand schemes. Two is the natural resources available for deer to consume without my help. Deer a browser. They are not cattle and will not graze on one source of food. I believe that in the majority of the US (with south Texas being the exception) the natural foilage is abundant enough to attract and sustain a deer herd without my help. In Texas this natural foilage is scarce and as stated above the land available for management in mind blowing.

Heck, we would all like to improve a deer herds' health but we do not have the opportunity for success like the Texas hunters do. I wish we could all see the result that the south Texas hunters see. That would make everyone very happy and probably put and end to this debate

Maybe some don't understand the situation or are maybe a little jealous. I know I am VERY jealous. I would love to see results that I saw while hunting a lease for 8 years. I saw the quality of the deer improve drastically.

Try it before you knock it ( no pun intended :D).

Good luck this year.
 

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I understand that they did an outstanding job of raising the deer. but to create an artifficial world and then to brag about what was shot but exclude the details of where and how, is direspectful to the people that hunt wild deer out on public land ,that you share with other people and there deer management ideas. If Texas just did the maintaining of foopplots, and the enhancing of the naturally occuring food sources, I would have absolutly no problem with that. But to raise an over populated herd for the natural veg. and then to cull the herd to have more mature bucks with an even buck to doe ratio, and then to supplement the herd with the needed minerals to grow heavier and larger racks, now thats nothing but farming.

Heck here is a thought. We should go to Canada and fence off 100000 acres. With the naturally occuring large deer and genetics, with the proper minerals, and feed buckets, we could really get some whoppers. We could than raise the deer to 1 deer per 5 acres. Than heck lets get the ratio to 2 bucks to 1 doe, hell what a hunt that would be. People would than be really envious. We can than right and show photo's of the deer and say these were from Canada what a great place, large naturally occuring deer around every corner. People would than know that 200" deer are everywhere.


Just kidding about that but maybe now you can see our point.
 

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madarchery said:
O.K. I must jump in. I don't think most people who bash and say that hunting (*canned hunts) are easy, really mean that its an easy score. What I feel , and it probably goes toward the way alot of people feel.
First, let's stop using the phrase "canned hunts" so loosely. A "canned hunt" to me is a hunt where there is no chance of escape by the animal. This is NOT the case in 99.9% of what we are talking about, so let's clear that up right now. The only canned hunt I ever participated in was at the grocery store. It is insulting as hell to hear that phrase used so often in regards to this topic. If you have never done it, you don't know. Until you do, all you can intelligently do is listen to those who have and trust their words about it.

You guys created an artifficial deer world, and there is resenment toward that. The real problem arises when you claim to shoot such monster bucks and want so much recognition for it. Most people all want to shoot a monster buck, but most hunt there own state and on public land. There chances are only as good as the area they hunt. So to compete with farm raised deer is a slap in the face. That is the problem. Not with the baiting as much.
And THAT is simply jealousy rearing its ugly head. Admit it.

You can say what you want, but when there is a big obsticle restricting movement...
Remember, most high fenced ranches in South Texas are sprawling. Larger than the home range of bucks.

...and you supplement the feeding to grow larger deer and to maintain a larger herd, you have just become a deer farmer. And now to hunt your deer and gloat about the trophy ("that was easier to come by, from the increased and controlled herd") now that sucks. I
I'm not gloating. I haven't heard anybody on this board gloat. I have heard a lot of pissin & moanin, though. Stop it, k?
 

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Canned Hunting

What is a canned hunt? Just because its high fence does not mean its guaranteed. Most of the high fence ranches I know of are at least 700 acres, over one square mile. I hunted on a friend of mines ranch in Throckmorton County which is almost 700 acres under high fence, for whitetail deer. He has about 40 whitetail deer, I hunted 2 days in a ground blind with my son and we did not see one whitetail. For those who think high fence is'nt true hunting, give it a try and let us know from experience what you think.
 

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The point I was trying to make was that I don't care for the managment of the pop. not the hunting itself so much. Sorry for using the c word. I am jelous, because I love racks, but I also love the deer themselve and would like to manage them to be the best possible but to keep within reason. Fences and supplemental feeding I feel are all over the top for the deer benefit.


I am going to stop on this topic or we will go round and round.

BUT THINK ABOUT THIS, AND REALLY THINK!! IF HUMAN INTRAVENTION WAS HALTED WOULD YOUR HERD BEABLE TO MAINTAIN THEMSELVES IN 10 YEARS, IF NOT YOUR HARMING THE VERY HERD YOUR TRYING TO PERFECT. IN WI EVEN IF ALL FARMING WOULD STOP WE WOULD STILL HAVE ENOUGH FORAGE FOR THE DEER TO MAINTAIN A GOOD MAJORITY OF THE HERD. AND THATS WHAT THE BASIS OF THE WI MANAGMENT IS BASED UPON THE REAL CARRYING CAPACITY. SO I GUESS WE ARE HUNTING A NATURAL HERD, AND THE ANIMALS THAT PROSPER UNDER THIS MANAGMENT DESERVE THE MOST RESPECT.
 

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madarchery said:
BUT THINK ABOUT THIS, AND REALLY THINK!! IF HUMAN INTRAVENTION WAS HALTED WOULD YOUR HERD BEABLE TO MAINTAIN THEMSELVES IN 10 YEARS, IF NOT YOUR HARMING THE VERY HERD YOUR TRYING TO PERFECT. IN WI EVEN IF ALL FARMING WOULD STOP WE WOULD STILL HAVE ENOUGH FORAGE FOR THE DEER TO MAINTAIN A GOOD MAJORITY OF THE HERD. AND THATS WHAT THE BASIS OF THE WI MANAGMENT IS BASED UPON THE REAL CARRYING CAPACITY. SO I GUESS WE ARE HUNTING A NATURAL HERD, AND THE ANIMALS THAT PROSPER UNDER THIS MANAGMENT DESERVE THE MOST RESPECT.
From www.peta.org:

It’s time to leave the deer alone. Stop breeding them for target practice, stop raising them on farms, stop shipping them from state to state, stop killing all the natural predators. Stop this bloodthirsty madness that passes for sport but isn’t.
Sound familiar?
 

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Wow

Mad, are you comparing this to a guy who has the money to buy a new car and get the best money can buy, have his cake and eat it too is less o a person than a guy who finds a junker and restores it to show car condition. Should he get the right of way and get to turn without signaling just because he feels he worked harder??
 

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madarchery

In most parts of Texas and even in the high fenced areas, the answer is yes they could substain themselves on the forage available. The difference would be antler size and body weight.
The Texas ranchers even the high fence boys are trying to maintain approximately one deer per every thirty or forty acres.
Different areas have different carrying capacities, but the last lease I was on the TP&W wanted us to maintain 1 deer to 40 acres for best results. The supplemental feeding is protein and minerals that the deer cannot get enough of through native plants. The other thing that allows us to grow these big racks is that we allow the deer to mature. Most places will not allow you to shoot a deer under 5 1/2 years of age. Unless it is a cull or inferior deer. Think what your deer would look like if allowed to mature to 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 years old. Mind boggling ain't it.
 

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You took that a little to left feild. But heck ya. He will definatly get my respect, for the work.

And if I read about him and the guy who bought a new one and shows it off like he's king of the hill. Well I know who I would like to talk to and HUNT with.
 

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deertexas

I ain't no peta but I do understand the balance and thats what iI was striving for. Not to make this topic black and white.

javelinna


I said earlier that iI didn't know all tje details of the Texas way. I do understand that age is the primary factor. But if it is and you manage the herd under the capacity why try to raise the deer to grow superior racks than what can naturally occur, if you just left the food sources alone and managed them for age wouldn't this be better.
 

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madarchery said:


javelinna


I said earlier that iI didn't know all tje details of the Texas way. I do understand that age is the primary factor. But if it is and you manage the herd under the capacity why try to raise the deer to grow superior racks than what can naturally occur, if you just left the food sources alone and managed them for age wouldn't this be better.
How better...?

If you have the oportunity and the means why would you not acheive the best you are capable of.
Please enplain, the way this is heading, it seems that you object to improvement in the herd, i.e. culling for stronger, healthier and larger antlers. This is what nature does, (except for maybe the antlers) we've taken the place of the predators. If left to fend for themselves without hunters, deer would overpopulate and die off, just as they have done for ages.
 

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Javi, you make some very good points. The "no fence" ranch where I hunt WT,s has some monsters on it that are in the 5+ year old range. Beacause the land owner only allows rifle hunters to shoot does. Last night he said that this year the buck to doe ratio is 1 buck for every 2 does. They are "fed" by the alfalfa fields above the river bottom where they live. Good management by the ranches, does indeed make for a healthier and more mature herd. This is a good thing!:D For the bowhunters AND the WT's, Mulies and Antelope that live there. 90% of all WT's and speed goats in this part of the state are on private land. Alot of landowners will let you hunt their land for free, which is great! No one complains about Montana though. Private land is private land so whats the difference?:confused: You Texans do a great job managing your herds IMO.
 
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