Archery Talk Forum banner
1 - 20 of 83 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm looking at various methods, it seems to contradict a lot of other guidance I've seen.

In both the below videos, both Dudley and MFJJ allow the ends to briefly catch on fire. Something I've read is sacrilegious. (Obviously these guys know what they're doing, it's just an observation).

What I found interesting is that Dudley never does a final "tightening" of the knot. He seems to tighten each side individually during the process. I usually do a final tightening with D-loop specific pliers.

Dudley:

MFJJ:

How do you guys do it ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
-Cut material to 4 3/8”
-Mushroom & burn ends leaving a ball (I don’t flatten) bringing total length to 4 1/4”
-Put on string and use needlenose on the tail to tighten
-Route tail to opposite side of the string and finish tying
-Use needlenose to tighten
EDIT: I tie nock sets top and bottom and leave appropriate nock wiggle room based on ATA/DL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,355 Posts
I do mine more or less the Dudley way, but with these modifications:
  • No additional nock sets inside or outside the d-loop knots. You don't need them and they create more problems than they solve - just the d-loop and that's all you need. Cleaner, simpler, easier to adjust and maintain.
  • I burn the first end of the rope before tying it on or I premake the d-loop with both ends cut and burned if I already know what's needed for the d-loop length I'm after.
  • I do the final tightening with the Outer Limit Stretch pliers.

Getting the final tightness is more of an art than a science. The loop needs to be tight enough so it doesn't slop around the center serving (which causes the snaking-around-the-string syndrome on the shot), but not so tight that it damages the center serving underneath. This just takes practice.

I do try to keep the cigarette lighter away from the bowstring, so if I can avoid the flame near the string, I'll do it. I haven't actually damaged a string yet, but knowing how I screw stuff up in general, I like to cut myself off at the pass wherever possible.

Mine look generally like this when installed:

Wood Tool Line Material property Gas


lee.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,127 Posts
Do not "burn" the material, no direct contact with flame.
Do "melt" the material, indirect contact with the flame. Heat only, no flame contact.
"Fuzz" end of material with finger and then melt.
Melt one end of material, measure, cut and melt other end, install and tighten. If incorrect length, adjust length and do it again. Write down the length and make a back-up loop, just in case.
I use a 6 inch machinist scale to measure "D" loop length and material length.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,330 Posts
I precut and pre-melt both ends keeping the ball intact without flattening it. I never burn the material but slowly melt it. The idea of burning just doesn’t make sense to me as it’s burning off some of the material and makes it brittle. Given the few times I need to tie a d-loop, I take the time to slowly pre-melt and keep as much material integrity as possible.
I use tied nocks inside the d-loop and never have any issues. I use notched needle nose pliers to tighten the loop as tight as possible to prevent it from spinning on the serving. Keeping the knots on opposite sides also prevents the loop from rotating or spinning around the serving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,366 Posts
I'm a D-loop micro-tuner, for perfect bare shaft/broadhead horizontal POI's. I'll start by tying a little longer than I need and then keep shortening and melting one mushroom until I get it just right. I use Cir-cut Super Loop material. It's stiffer, less stretchy and way more durable than BCY #23/#24. Once it get set into the center serving, it won't ever slip or squeeze between serving wraps. It won't pinch nocks either, so nock sets aren't needed at all.

When melting mushrooms, I use a box cutter blade as a heat shield to protect my string. I slip the loop end to be melted, into one of the slots on the back edge of the blade.

I have long handled, longnose, stainless fishing pliars that work perfectly for cinching loops. They don't even need notches. For whatever reason, they never slip--a guess it's a more gradual angle, due to longer handles.
 

·
Registered
Prime Inline 3, Prime Nexus 4
Joined
·
150 Posts
I do mine more or less the Dudley way, but with these modifications:
  • No additional nock sets inside or outside the d-loop knots. You don't need them and they create more problems than they solve - just the d-loop and that's all you need. Cleaner, simpler, easier to adjust and maintain.
  • I burn the first end of the rope before tying it on or I premake the d-loop with both ends cut and burned if I already know what's needed for the d-loop length I'm after.
  • I do the final tightening with the Outer Limit Stretch pliers.

Getting the final tightness is more of an art than a science. The loop needs to be tight enough so it doesn't slop around the center serving (which causes the snaking-around-the-string syndrome on the shot), but not so tight that it damages the center serving underneath. This just takes practice.

I do try to keep the cigarette lighter away from the bowstring, so if I can avoid the flame near the string, I'll do it. I haven't actually damaged a string yet, but knowing how I screw stuff up in general, I like to cut myself off at the pass wherever possible.

Mine look generally like this when installed:

View attachment 7624338

lee.
I am same. No nock sets..
 

·
(aka lug nut)
Joined
·
53,171 Posts
I like the confidence on here, no nock set needed ever. Just cause problems....okay
WRONG. Completely inaccurate. Tied nock points are adjustable. Just spin the tied nock set
to micro tune the d-loop up or down. If you tie the TIED nock set too tight, then, the tied nock set will NOT adjust up or down. Tied nock sets allow you to repeat the EXACT same d-loop location, if your old d-loop is worn out.






That d-loop is STUPID short. No, not really.





MELT the fibers, don't burn the fibers. If you BURN thermoplastics (d-loop material), you make the fibers brittle.
So, why BURN thermoplastic fibers, when it's sooo easy to MELT the fibers?

BUT that d-loop is still STUPID short? That will just NEVER work.

Wait for it. There is another step.



THIS is how you TIGHTEN d-loop knots. Use needlenose pliers.



Insert the nose of the needlenose pliers inside the STUPID short d-loop.
Now, pull apart the handles.



BEFORE stretching the NEWLY tied d-loop.



AFTER stretching the NEWLY tied d-loop, with TIED nock points...which are adjustable.



Short tied nock point is at top of d-loop.
Wider tied nock point is at the bottom of d-loop.
 

·
Registered
Mathews Traverse
Joined
·
3,685 Posts
I like the confidence on here, no nock set needed ever. Just cause problems....okay
Same as don't ever let your dloop burn when melting it. I can't tell you how many times mine have caught fire, turned black and yet has never ever failed.
But as with anything,......do what makes you happy, just don't preach it as gospel.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,355 Posts
I like the confidence on here, no nock set needed ever. Just cause problems....okay
The problem with the nock sets is they don't buy you anything. They're typically only used as band-aids for the creeping nock pinch syndrome. Nock pinch is caused by the string maker using a poor quality center serving - this causes the d-loop knots to separate the serving underneath which causes the works to come loose. This gives the familiar slow, slopping knocking point, which oozes up and down the string like an amoeba, and causes the knots to slowly ooze together too

You see it all the time on the line, where guys try to fix it by tying more and more serving on between and outside the d-loop knots. That puts it off for a little bit, but it's not a fix.

What you lose with all the extra stuff is simplicity and ease of adjustment of the knocking point when needed. A couple of "screws" up and down the center serving is all that's needed with just the d-loop. With the additional knocking points, you have to screw those up and down too, which causes them to come loose, and.... well....

But with a good center serving like Angel Majesty, Powergrip, etc. designed for high stress areas like center serving, all you need is the d-loop. Set it, forget it and it stays totally put until you replace it when it wears out....

lee.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,050 Posts
The problem with the nock sets is they don't buy you anything. They're typically only used as band-aids for the creeping nock pinch syndrome. Nock pinch is caused by the string maker using a poor quality center serving - this causes the d-loop knots to separate the serving underneath which causes the works to come loose. This gives the familiar slow, slopping knocking point, which oozes up and down the string like an amoeba, and causes the knots to slowly ooze together too

You see it all the time on the line, where guys try to fix it by tying more and more serving on between and outside the d-loop knots. That puts it off for a little bit, but it's not a fix.

What you lose with all the extra stuff is simplicity and ease of adjustment of the knocking point when needed. A couple of "screws" up and down the center serving is all that's needed with just the d-loop. With the additional knocking points, you have to screw those up and down too, which causes them to come loose, and.... well....

But with a good center serving like Angel Majesty, Powergrip, etc. designed for high stress areas like center serving, all you need is the d-loop. Set it, forget it and it stays totally put until you replace it when it wears out....

lee.
...and then you will wish you had tied at least one nock point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,355 Posts
WRONG. Completely inaccurate. Tied nock points are adjustable. Just spin the tied nock set
to micro tune the d-loop up or down. If you tie the TIED nock set too tight, then, the tied nock set will NOT adjust up or down. Tied nock sets allow you to repeat the EXACT same d-loop location, if your old d-loop is worn out.






That d-loop is STUPID short. No, not really.





MELT the fibers, don't burn the fibers. If you BURN thermoplastics (d-loop material), you make the fibers brittle.
So, why BURN thermoplastic fibers, when it's sooo easy to MELT the fibers?

BUT that d-loop is still STUPID short? That will just NEVER work.

Wait for it. There is another step.



THIS is how you TIGHTEN d-loop knots. Use needlenose pliers.



Insert the nose of the needlenose pliers inside the STUPID short d-loop.
Now, pull apart the handles.



BEFORE stretching the NEWLY tied d-loop.



AFTER stretching the NEWLY tied d-loop, with TIED nock points...which are adjustable.



Short tied nock point is at top of d-loop.
Wider tied nock point is at the bottom of d-loop.
These photos illustrate another problem with the nock sets installed inside the loop. You can see how far apart the d-loop knots themselves are. This much increased angle greatly increases the "columnar" squeezing forces applied to the serving in the gap. Especially with shorter d-loops where the angle is much larger, and the typical poor center serving used, this speeds up the appearance of the knock pinch syndrome.

compare that to a d-loop only installation (below), where the legs of the loop are much closer to parallel. Much less squeezing force applied to the knots.

Wood Tool Line Material property Gas

lee.
 
1 - 20 of 83 Posts
Top