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He everyone,

I am going crazy trying to tune my bow and I am pretty much at the limits of my knowledge so I am turning to you for help.
I shoot a PSE Brute Force (2017) with 50-60 lb limbs. I shoot a very short arrow, at 25.5 inches (not an overdraw, I am a short guy). I am shooting carbon 400's with 125 grain field points. I believe my form is good and I shoot with an open grip and a wrist sling so I don't believe I am torquing the bow. Here is my problem:
when shooting through paper (at about 6-8 ft) I can get a perfect bullet hole, but i have to move the rest to the left (I am right handed so AWAY from the bow) a full quarter of an inch past center shot. Thus the arrow is pointing WAY to the left of center. It shoots bullet holes at about 8' and about 20' (limits of my basement).

Here is where it gets weirder. I didn't like the set up like that, but really, the same thing was pretty much true last year and I shot groups quite well. So I went out to my range to bare shaft tune. At 15 yards, my bare shafts were hitting WAY left of my fletched arrows. So much so that small adjustments weren't making a difference, so I moved the rest back to center shot and now the fletched and unfletched shafts are nice and tight together (within an inch or so at 20 yards). I KNOW I can see the arrows flying tail right out of the bow which agrees with my paper tuning results if I understand it correctly. I was getting significant tail-right tears until I moved the rest way left of center shot.

Don't these two results (paper and bare shaft) contradict each other? Could there be another issue I don't know about? SHouldn't a good paper tune hole equate to a good bare shaft tune?

One thing I noticed after looking over and measuring everything on the bow is that the left yoke (As I hold the bow as if I were shooting it, so the arrow-side of the riser yoke) is about 1/8" longer than the right side yoke (7-1/8" v. 7-1/4"). I wouldn't think that would make that much of a difference, and honestly, because it is a short bow, the cable guide pulls everything to the right so it makes sense to me that the left one would be a bit longer. These are custom strings by the way.

Any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong or could there be something wrong with my bow?

Thank you in advance
 

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2 things, you might be getting fletching contact. Did you shoot s bareshaft through paper?
The other things it indicates is inconsistent form. Bareshafts are not forgiving at all.
 

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He everyone,

I am going crazy trying to tune my bow and I am pretty much at the limits of my knowledge so I am turning to you for help.
I shoot a PSE Brute Force (2017) with 50-60 lb limbs. I shoot a very short arrow, at 25.5 inches (not an overdraw, I am a short guy). I am shooting carbon 400's with 125 grain field points. I believe my form is good and I shoot with an open grip and a wrist sling so I don't believe I am torquing the bow. Here is my problem:
when shooting through paper (at about 6-8 ft) I can get a perfect bullet hole, but i have to move the rest to the left (I am right handed so AWAY from the bow) a full quarter of an inch past center shot. Thus the arrow is pointing WAY to the left of center. It shoots bullet holes at about 8' and about 20' (limits of my basement).

Here is where it gets weirder. I didn't like the set up like that, but really, the same thing was pretty much true last year and I shot groups quite well. So I went out to my range to bare shaft tune. At 15 yards, my bare shafts were hitting WAY left of my fletched arrows. So much so that small adjustments weren't making a difference, so I moved the rest back to center shot and now the fletched and unfletched shafts are nice and tight together (within an inch or so at 20 yards). I KNOW I can see the arrows flying tail right out of the bow which agrees with my paper tuning results if I understand it correctly. I was getting significant tail-right tears until I moved the rest way left of center shot.

Don't these two results (paper and bare shaft) contradict each other? Could there be another issue I don't know about? SHouldn't a good paper tune hole equate to a good bare shaft tune?

One thing I noticed after looking over and measuring everything on the bow is that the left yoke (As I hold the bow as if I were shooting it, so the arrow-side of the riser yoke) is about 1/8" longer than the right side yoke (7-1/8" v. 7-1/4"). I wouldn't think that would make that much of a difference, and honestly, because it is a short bow, the cable guide pulls everything to the right so it makes sense to me that the left one would be a bit longer. These are custom strings by the way.

Any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong or could there be something wrong with my bow?

Thank you in advance
NOthing wrong with your bow. Shooting OPEN HAND never works. Post a form photo, DEAD level arrow...camera far away enough so we can see the FLOOR, we can see your shoes, we can see ALL of you head to toe, and ALL of the bow. Like this.



Get your arrow rest moved to the right, until two arrows are dead parallel to each other. Like this.



Wrap the riser with a rubber band. Feed the 2nd arrow through both ends of the rubber band. Rubber band will hold the 2nd arrow for you. The WALL of your riser is pointing DEAD straight ahead. Load the first arrow onto your arrow rest. LOOSEN the bolt, and shove the arrow rest sideways, until both arrows are dead parallel to each other. To confirm parallel, use a slip of paper and fold the paper to a width that just BARELY touches both arrows.



Confirm that the paper just fits between the two arrows near the nock.



Confirm that the paper JUST fits between the two arrows near the point. Lock down the arrow rest. Arrow rest NOW is at dead straight ahead centershot.
 

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He everyone,

I am going crazy trying to tune my bow and I am pretty much at the limits of my knowledge so I am turning to you for help.
I shoot a PSE Brute Force (2017) with 50-60 lb limbs. I shoot a very short arrow, at 25.5 inches (not an overdraw, I am a short guy). I am shooting carbon 400's with 125 grain field points. I believe my form is good and I shoot with an open grip and a wrist sling so I don't believe I am torquing the bow. Here is my problem:
when shooting through paper (at about 6-8 ft) I can get a perfect bullet hole, but i have to move the rest to the left (I am right handed so AWAY from the bow) a full quarter of an inch past center shot. Thus the arrow is pointing WAY to the left of center. It shoots bullet holes at about 8' and about 20' (limits of my basement).

Here is where it gets weirder. I didn't like the set up like that, but really, the same thing was pretty much true last year and I shot groups quite well. So I went out to my range to bare shaft tune. At 15 yards, my bare shafts were hitting WAY left of my fletched arrows. So much so that small adjustments weren't making a difference, so I moved the rest back to center shot and now the fletched and unfletched shafts are nice and tight together (within an inch or so at 20 yards). I KNOW I can see the arrows flying tail right out of the bow which agrees with my paper tuning results if I understand it correctly. I was getting significant tail-right tears until I moved the rest way left of center shot.

Don't these two results (paper and bare shaft) contradict each other? Could there be another issue I don't know about? SHouldn't a good paper tune hole equate to a good bare shaft tune?

One thing I noticed after looking over and measuring everything on the bow is that the left yoke (As I hold the bow as if I were shooting it, so the arrow-side of the riser yoke) is about 1/8" longer than the right side yoke (7-1/8" v. 7-1/4"). I wouldn't think that would make that much of a difference, and honestly, because it is a short bow, the cable guide pulls everything to the right so it makes sense to me that the left one would be a bit longer. These are custom strings by the way.

Any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong or could there be something wrong with my bow?

Thank you in advance
Yoke legs. YES, for a RIGHT handed bow, the left yoke leg is ALWAYS longer, and the right yoke leg is ALWAYS shorter. Instead of using a ruler to measure the yoke leg, use an arrow. Yes, an arrow. We are going to use an arrow just like a ruler. PINCH the arrow tight to the left side of the TOP cam. Like this.



While pinching the arrow tight to the side of the top cam, with your left hand, use your right hand and pull on the arrow shaft to SLIDE the arrow up or down, until the POINT of the arrow is at the same height as the d-loop. You want the arrow point, lining up with the right edge of the center serving. Like this. Adjust yoke leg twists, until the point of the arrow (ruler) does this.



NOW, your bow is at a reasonable TUNE for yoke leg length. NOW your bow is at a super REASONABLE starting arrow rest centershot position. NOW, we work on your form, if you cannot get a bullet hole. NOW we work on your FORM, if the bareshaft will not smack inside the fletched arrow group at 20 yards. Your BOW hand grip technique DEFINITELY needs work if you shoot "OPEN HAND".
 

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Is it a hunting bow? If so, which tuning puts broad heads closer to your field points?

That’s what I’d go with as long as my groups were good. You might be overspined at that arrow length, but that usually isn’t much of a problem on modern bows.

Welcome to the forum!
 

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Hello and welcome to AT.
There are some variables that can cause contradicting issues. If you have to jack your rest way out of center to make a good hole thru paper, then the results are going to give you some false positive results. Fletching contact is always a good culprit to look at. Arrow spine can be an issue. Try a softer spine shaft and see if that changes things. Make sure your cams are in sync as well. What arrow rest are you using? It can be a single problem or a combination of problems. You will need to work thru them one at a time to eliminate any issues.
 

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That is a hybrid cam system so you can totally lock down the arrow rest in the optimal setting and not move it and then tune the bow with yoke tuning the top cam. very rarely you may need to shim the bottom cam but usually you do not. We can help with this method if you want to learn it.
 

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Your DW, DL?
Which rest? Possibile fletching contact?
Ditto. What model rest?

Also, don't shoot with an open hand. Shoot with a relaxed hand. Holding your hand open required the use of your wrist/finger extensor muscles which when tightened to keep your hand open actually forces your hand forwards pushing on the bow grip. A right hand shooter shooting with an open hand will almost always put too much pressure on the left edge of the grip, as the hand is forced forwards by the open hand, and that causes a persistent and usually pretty bad nock right condition. The hand/fingers should be relaxed and allowed to naturally curl.
 

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Just went through some tuning headaches of my own, what worked for me was to start from the beginning. Check specs, ATA (this is were my problem was, it measure 1/4" long so I added 7 full twists), brace height, timing, finally cam lean (after ATA adjustment I had to adjust this). Make sure no fletching contact. I only shoot 4-blade bhs, so I believe in bare shaft tuning (shooting at 20 yards into foam target) and looking at the impact point and bare/fletched arrow orientation (refer to the easton tuning guide to correct orientation). I think that I had a problem of making changes to quickly, meaning that after I made a change i needed to take 12 shots (making sure changes could settle in) before re-evaluating arrow flight. Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the input everyone. I will answer some of the questions you all had here rather than indivisually.
1) I shoot a QAD drop away rest.
2) I don't think I have any clearance issues as I have never seen signs of it, and I think that would give me a tail-left tear I anyway. Eyeballing the vanes and the cables, shelf, etc. clearance looks fine, but I will check with lipstick to be sure.
3) I guess I should have said I shoot wi ha LOOSE grip, rather than an open one. My thumb and forefinger touch, but my hand is relaxed. I have seen a lot of people death-grip the grip with a fist. I don't do that. Hopefully you can see/critique this when I post a picture.
4) Spine should be good, that is why I went to a 125 gr tip instead of a 100. I thought the 100's on the 400 arrow was acting too stiff at my draw length. I tried 500 arrows, too, and that worked, but they are REALLY hard to find so I went up in tip weight. I am just about at 14.9% FOC with the current set up.
5) IO will post pics, but the NUTS&BOLTS arrow on the cam trick shows the point just to the RIGHT of my string, so maybe I need to do some twisting/untwisting. I don't have a press so that means heading to the shop. HOWEVER, my lower cam is significantly out of parallel. Holding an arrow on the cam, that edge CROSSES the string BELOW the string stop. Could this be an issue? Again, I will post pics hopefully tonight.
 

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Thanks for the input everyone. I will answer some of the questions you all had here rather than indivisually.
1) I shoot a QAD drop away rest.
2) I don't think I have any clearance issues as I have never seen signs of it, and I think that would give me a tail-left tear I anyway. Eyeballing the vanes and the cables, shelf, etc. clearance looks fine, but I will check with lipstick to be sure.
3) I guess I should have said I shoot wi ha LOOSE grip, rather than an open one. My thumb and forefinger touch, but my hand is relaxed. I have seen a lot of people death-grip the grip with a fist. I don't do that. Hopefully you can see/critique this when I post a picture.
4) Spine should be good, that is why I went to a 125 gr tip instead of a 100. I thought the 100's on the 400 arrow was acting too stiff at my draw length. I tried 500 arrows, too, and that worked, but they are REALLY hard to find so I went up in tip weight. I am just about at 14.9% FOC with the current set up.
5) IO will post pics, but the NUTS&BOLTS arrow on the cam trick shows the point just to the RIGHT of my string, so maybe I need to do some twisting/untwisting. I don't have a press so that means heading to the shop. HOWEVER, my lower cam is significantly out of parallel. Holding an arrow on the cam, that edge CROSSES the string BELOW the string stop. Could this be an issue? Again, I will post pics hopefully tonight.
You have a hybrid cam bow, meaning you have ONE yoke leg cable (yoke legs only attach to the top axle). Fixing the out of parallel bottom cam is impossible without a bow press, so best to leave the bottom cam alone, and see if you can get the yoke legs adjusted on the top axle. Will wait for your photo (head to toe).

Without a bow press (portable or full size), your options for tuning are EXTREMELY limited.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Here are my form pics. the arrow/string pics were too blurry so I will retake and post. I did post the center shot/parallel pic. They look pretty close to me. Hard to get them parallel on the Y-axis with a rubber band, so the pic may be off, but they are damn close on the X- axis.

I am ordering a portable bow press. I was spoiled for years as there was a bow shop right down the road from me, but he closed his doors this year. I have an old portable press, but I don't think I would trust it now. It is over 20 years old and was designed for bows that don't even resemble what we shoot nowadays.

It looks like these are posting rotated 90 degrees. Not sure why. I'll see if I can fix it, but they look normal on my computer.


IMG_8398.jpg IMG_8435.jpg IMG_8462.jpg
 

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I'm sure Nuts and bolts will comment on your shooting form. As a righty shooter, a bareshaft that hits way right would indicate that your DL is long. I am assuming that you were getting right tears because you moved your rest left to fix it; that wouldn't jive with the right bareshafts though.
That's what made me think contact.
I'd figure out if your form is contributing first (nuts and bolts)
Then reset centershot, shoot through paper and yoke tune to get bullet holes. Once you do that, shoot a bareshaft, if you're still getting weird findings, it's probably your form. (grip, DL, collapsing shoulder, etc) your pic, on my phone, at a weird angle, doesn't look too bad but I found from my own tuning, that if I collapse my front shoulder, I shoot bareshafts like my DL is too long, if I overextend my bow arm, I can get bareshafts to shoot Ike my DL is to short. Getting my DL perfect has been eye opening for me.
 

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Here are my form pics. the arrow/string pics were too blurry so I will retake and post. I did post the center shot/parallel pic. They look pretty close to me. Hard to get them parallel on the Y-axis with a rubber band, so the pic may be off, but they are damn close on the X- axis.

I am ordering a portable bow press. I was spoiled for years as there was a bow shop right down the road from me, but he closed his doors this year. I have an old portable press, but I don't think I would trust it now. It is over 20 years old and was designed for bows that don't even resemble what we shoot nowadays.

It looks like these are posting rotated 90 degrees. Not sure why. I'll see if I can fix it, but they look normal on my computer.


View attachment 6931267 View attachment 6931269 View attachment 6931271
Triple the distance between you and the camera so we can see THE FLOOR, so we can see YOUR SHOES.
 

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Here are my form pics. the arrow/string pics were too blurry so I will retake and post. I did post the center shot/parallel pic. They look pretty close to me. Hard to get them parallel on the Y-axis with a rubber band, so the pic may be off, but they are damn close on the X- axis.

I am ordering a portable bow press. I was spoiled for years as there was a bow shop right down the road from me, but he closed his doors this year. I have an old portable press, but I don't think I would trust it now. It is over 20 years old and was designed for bows that don't even resemble what we shoot nowadays.

It looks like these are posting rotated 90 degrees. Not sure why. I'll see if I can fix it, but they look normal on my computer.
YOu have SIGNIFICANT form issues. So, put an arrow on the floor, pointing at the target. Like this. THEN, line up the tips of your shoes, tips of shoes touching the arrow on the ground.



Then, after you have the TIPS of your shoes touching the arrow on the ground, then TWIST your hips CLOCKWISE, so your HIPS are parallel to the arrow on the ground.
You have a SEVERE MASSIVE open stance for your hips. You don't need to, and don't want to...rotate your hips to point THAT far left of the arrow flight path.

FINAL problem.



You lean sooooo far backwards, that your head/chin are pointing UPHILL, while your arrow is pointing slightly downhill. The double exposure shows you how much you need to lean FORWARDS. Simple exercise. Attach a paper clip to your shirt (middle of neck line), and hang a string, with a weight on the end (plumb bob). PRint a bullseye target and CENTER the bullseye between your ankles. YOUR JOB, is to lean FORWARDS more and more and more (make the end of your front stab move FORWARDS 5-6 inches), and keep leaning MORE forwards until the plumb bob weight hovers above the bullseye.



Like this.



New form photo, where we can see the FLOOR, where we can see YOUR SHOES...please.

Bow hand also needs work.
 

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YOUR bow hand needs a lot of work. Not good enough to grip the bow with thumb and index finger. Gotta rotate the knuckles to 45 degrees as well.
Cuz your bow hand knuckles are MUCH too vertical, then, you also have MUCH too much of your thumb muscle in contact with the riser. This causes the massive horizontal paper tears, your tuning conundrum.

So, take some aluminum foil and wad it into a FIRM 2-inch diameter ball. This BALL will keep three fingers busy. HOLD the ball with your pinky finger, with your 4th finger and with your middle finger.
This leaves you your thumb and index finger. The diameter of the ball FORCES the correct rotation of the bow hand knuckles.



But, you say, the ball is TOO BIG. Perfect. That forces you to rotate your knuckles MUCH more than you are used to.
BUT, the ball is SOOOO BIG, your fingers cannot touch the riser. PERFECT. WE don't want those 3 fingers to touch the riser.
BUT, this dang BALL feels so WEIRD. PERFECT. The ball SHOULD feel weird, cuz you have never rotated your bow hand knuckles enough, until now.

Do I have to use this STUPID ball forever now? Nope. It's a training tool. Use the ball to fire 1,000 shots...however long that takes. The BALL builds NEW muscle memory,
so SOMEDAY, you can look like this.





But, what about my TUNING CONUNDRUM? Fix your form first. Fire 1000 shots with the BALL training tool. Learn how to lean FORWARDS 5-6 inches, so you can CENTER your head between your ankles, using the plumb bob training tool. Door mirror helps to SEE yourself. AFTER the 1000 shots at a close range target, AFTER 1000 shots standing up straight, AFTER 1000 shots with the ball training tool...

I'm pretty sure your TUNING conundrum will be near non-existent.
 

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Hard to tell from the pics but does the fletching touch your chin? If so, that's a problem and can cause tuning issues like you're seeing.
 
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