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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a Cartel fantom edge for my entry bow and have had two limb tip delaminations in 6 months. First time was the upper limb tip dampener?(not sure of the correct term for the little speedbump on the front near the d-loop) and the second time was the bottom limb, same spot.

The first occasion was fairly traumatic as it broke a $40 fastflight string but luckily the arrow shot and I didn't dry fire the bow. The noise and confusion was jarring, to say the least. The vendor to his credit did a straight swap under warranty.

Just yesterday the second failure occured but my string survived.
I've read there are known issues with the fantom limbs, after some investigation and said vendor is now suggesting I am the one causing the problem somehow.

He kept inferring FF strings are the cause and won't just swap out the limbs this time. To get any joy I'm going to have to wait for the limbs to be sent to Korea.
Great.

AFAIK fantom limbs should handle FF no problem.
The bow is 70" and my brace height was around 8" , the limbs 38#.

I bought a new set of Topoint endevour limbs because a couple of guys at my club who win everything use them and swear by them. For a cheaper Chinese brand they seem to make Cartel look very ordinary.
They come with cool padded limb bags, whereas the fantom came in thin plastic condom bags which are worthless.

The design of the endeavour is also superior. The aforementioned dampeners are molded as part of the limb and Cartel stick theirs on. I'm no engineer, but this seems a really awful process and invites failure.

Sorry for the TL/DR short story, but if you've made it this far I ask you this....

Could these failures be occuring because of any of the following
reasons?

1. Brace height at 8" instead of 9", which was suggested by a third party.
2. Cartel are inherently flawed.
3. Fastflight strings are the mobster garrottes of the archery world.
4. I'm black cat/broken mirror/voodoo curse levels of unlucky.

Any insights or similar stories appreciated greatly.

I will submit the limbs for a warranty claim, but doing so requires an hour long drive to the vendor and however long it will take to ship the limbs to Korea.
White Textile Sleeve Font Jersey
 

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Cartel is bottom of the barrel quality.
38# limbs for ENTRY (first time) recurve is a really really BAD idea.


WNS Explore B1 are in the same price range, 70 British pounds.
70" recurve bow.
Assuming 25-inch riser, then you have MEDIUM ILF limbs.
 

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I bought a Cartel fantom edge for my entry bow and have had two limb tip delaminations in 6 months. First time was the upper limb tip dampener?(not sure of the correct term for the little speedbump on the front near the d-loop) and the second time was the bottom limb, same spot.
Not a dampener.
Recurve bows do not have a d-loop.
Recurve bowstrings do not have a d-loop.
Recurve bowstrings, have an END LOOP at the top, and an END LOOP at the bottom.

The part that snapped off, is the phenolic LIMB TIP.
LIMB tips for one piece wooden recurve bows, from the 1950s and 1960s, the limb TIPS were part of the limb, and
un-reinforced.

So, a dacron bowstring is REQUIRED for the old, one piece wooden recurve bows. DACRON is more stretchy
like a rubber band, and will not SHOCK the wooden one piece recurve bows, meaning will not SNAP off the limb tip
and destroy the old wooden recurve bow.

Modern limbs, have phenolic limb tips to REINFORCE the end of the limb, the TIP of the limb.
That means you can use modern day recurve bowstring materials.

If you upgrade to WNS limbs, even at the SAME price range as the Cartel Fantom Edge limbs,
about 70 British pounds...
WNS limbs will not have phenolic limb tips that break off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Cartel is bottom of the barrel quality.
38# limbs for ENTRY (first time) recurve is a really really BAD idea.


WNS Explore B1 are in the same price range, 70 British pounds.
70" recurve bow.
Assuming 25-inch riser, then you have MEDIUM ILF limbs.
Cartel is bottom of the barrel quality.
38# limbs for ENTRY (first time) recurve is a really really BAD idea.


WNS Explore B1 are in the same price range, 70 British pounds.
70" recurve bow.
Assuming 25-inch riser, then you have MEDIUM ILF limbs.
I shot the club bows at 20# and they felt like toys. Being quite tall and I guess fairly strong my first limbs were 36# and I had no problem shooting them. The replacement limbs were 38# and now the Topoint limbs that replaced the replacements are 36# again. I'm already looking to go up to 40 something, as my friend has 48# limbs and they are manageable for me.
My next limbs will probably be carbon/foam or carbon/maple but
 

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The first occasion was fairly traumatic as it broke a $40 fastflight string but luckily the arrow shot and I didn't dry fire the bow. The noise and confusion was jarring, to say the least. The vendor to his credit did a straight swap under warranty.
A recurve bowstring should NEVER cost $40 US dollars,
should NEVER cost $40 British pounds.


$10 British pounds


$20 US Dollars
$16 British pounds.
Dyneema SK99.
 

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I shot the club bows at 20# and they felt like toys. Being quite tall and I guess fairly strong my first limbs were 36# and I had no problem shooting them. The replacement limbs were 38# and now the Topoint limbs that replaced the replacements are 36# again. I'm already looking to go up to 40 something, as my friend has 48# limbs and they are manageable for me.
My next limbs will probably be carbon/foam or carbon/maple but
If you can score 270 points out of 300 points on the 40 cm target at 18 meters, then
you can handle that poundage. If the bow limbs "FEEL" like toys, and you cannot score 270 points out of 300 points on the 40 cm target, really is MEANINGLESS how the limbs FEEL.

So, 270 points means 30 arrows, in the 9-ring or better at 18 meters.
So, this means all 30 arrows hit inside a circle that is 8 cm or 3.15 inches or TIGHTER.
So, when you have the CONTROL to put 30 shots inside a 8 cm group size or better, then, time to upgrade the poundage on the limbs.

What scores are you shooting at 18 meters?
If you never shoot at a target, what group size are you shooting at 18 meters?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A recurve bowstring should NEVER cost $40 US dollars,
should NEVER cost $40 British pounds.


$10 British pounds


$20 US Dollars
$16 British pounds.
Dyneema SK99.
A recurve bowstring should NEVER cost $40 US dollars,
should NEVER cost $40 British pounds.


$10 British pounds


$20 US Dollars
$16 British pounds.
Dyneema SK99.
Agreed, but please note I'm in Australia where high quality strings from England do cost $40 AUS. You see my little flag near my avatar right?
I can pick up a $15AUS FF string, but opted for a Reign string which has great reviews. I've been offered many times by other club members to buy their homemade strings for roughly the same price as the Reign but have resisted the offer. In my limited experience the Reigns have minimal if any stretching since I've put them on and I've shot over 2000 arrows through them.
 

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AFAIK fantom limbs should handle FF no problem.
The bow is 70" and my brace height was around 8" , the limbs 38#.
Any modern ILF recurve limb...any QUALITY modern ILF recurve limb
will handle modern recurve bowstring materials no problem.
100% dyneema recurve bowstrings will have a SOFTER feel on the fingers.
Blended dyneema/vectran recurve bowstrings, will be more stable across temperature changes (BCY 454).

Phenolic limb tips on a QUALITY (not Cartel) never break off, never come unglued, never snap.
WNS
Sebastien Flute
If your budget is $70....there are better choices than Cartel.

8-inches of brace is rather LOW for a 70inch ILF Recurve bow.
Technically, there are TWO brace heights that will provide solid results for a recurve bow.
A "Low" setting and a "High" setting.

A bow is no different than a TUNING fork. There is an ideal vibration range, where you get maximum energy transfer from the recurve bowstring and the recurve limbs into the arrow. WHen you are NOT at the ideal brace height (too high or too low), the EXCESS energy that is NOT transferred to the arrow, will vibrate the string and the limbs and the riser,
and you hear this as a LOUD NOISE.

YES, you can tune a recurve bow based on SOUND.
As you approach a more IDEAL brace height, the SOUND of firing your arrow, gets quieter and quieter.
The GROUP size also improves, assuming you have SOMEWHAT consistent form, somewhat consistent posture,
and a SOMEWHAT consistent recurve draw length....as you approach ideal brace height.

MOST recurve coaches would have you experiment with a 8-3/4-inch brace
to a 8-7/8ths inch brace
to a 9-inch brace.

NONE of us would have a beginner recurve shooter, shoot the 70-inch ILF recurve bow at a 8-inch brace.

Shoot a group of 3 fletched arrows and two bareshafts at 18 meters (20 yards)
and post a picture...with your 70-inch bow (after you get replacement limbs) at your 8-inch brace height.
 

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Agreed, but please note I'm in Australia where high quality strings from England do cost $40 AUS. You see my little flag near my avatar right?
I can pick up a $15AUS FF string, but opted for a Reign string which has great reviews. I've been offered many times by other club members to buy their homemade strings for roughly the same price as the Reign but have resisted the offer. In my limited experience the Reigns have minimal if any stretching since I've put them on and I've shot over 2000 arrows through them.
Ouch.
Making a recurve bowstring is not difficult.
 

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We use different targets to yours and I shoot instinctively. A perfect score would be 256 or 264 with every bonus point.
View attachment 7625653
Bow Arrow Wood Bow and arrow Precision sports


Not sure what size of the target, but nice shooting. Experiment with the brace height, and the two bareshafts should fly INSIDE your two fletched. IF the top two are bareshafts, move your nocking point up a tiny bit higher,
a mm or two. The plunger setting looks like you have the spring pressure dialed in perfectly.

I have been coaching my barebow student for the last 4 years. She just took 2nd place here in the US at the Field Archery Nationals, in Yankton, South Dakota. So, that is EXCELLENT shooting for instinctive (no sights).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have the new limbs on and have shot with them already, and I twisted the string so it sits at an even 9" now. Results so far are good.
Thanks for info, being new to the hobby I was guessing phrases and names. Now I know it's phenolic and end loop.
Thankfully there are people newer than me to make me feel better. Yesterday I noticed a new member had his arrow ABOVE the nocking point and corrected him. His form improved immediately, so much so he beat me with the balloon game we were playing. I wiped the floor with him in game #1, but after showing him the arrow sits below he thanked me by winning the next 2 games.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
View attachment 7625661

Not sure what size of the target, but nice shooting. Experiment with the brace height, and the two bareshafts should fly INSIDE your two fletched. IF the top two are bareshafts, move your nocking point up a tiny bit higher,
a mm or two. The plunger setting looks like you have the spring pressure dialed in perfectly.

I have been coaching my barebow student for the last 4 years. She just took 2nd place here in the US at the Field Archery Nationals, in Yankton, South Dakota. So, that is EXCELLENT shooting for instinctive (no sights).
Pretty sure the target is 25cm, will get back to you on that when I go for a shoot later today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
View attachment 7625661

Not sure what size of the target, but nice shooting. Experiment with the brace height, and the two bareshafts should fly INSIDE your two fletched. IF the top two are bareshafts, move your nocking point up a tiny bit higher,
a mm or two. The plunger setting looks like you have the spring pressure dialed in perfectly.

I have been coaching my barebow student for the last 4 years. She just took 2nd place here in the US at the Field Archery Nationals, in Yankton, South Dakota. So, that is EXCELLENT shooting for instinctive (no sights).
Thanks a lot.
I have tried aiming and send the shafts to Valhalla when they sail over the butt. Gap shooting and string walking are like quantum physics to me.
Being instinctive and mainly target with a little bit of field, I'm wasting money on expensive risers right?
BB seems my happy place and having a Gillo riser would be silly if I'm not bolting on sights and stabilzers trying to make my own TV aerial.

Congrats on your students achievement.
 

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Thanks a lot.
I have tried aiming and send the shafts to Valhalla when they sail over the butt. Gap shooting and string walking are like quantum physics to me.
Being instinctive and mainly target with a little bit of field, I'm wasting money on expensive risers right?
BB seems my happy place and having a Gillo riser would be silly if I'm not bolting on sights and stabilzers trying to make my own TV aerial.

Congrats on your students achievement.
My 16 year old barebow student, been training her since 12 years old,
she used my 40 year old Hoyt TD4 Gold Medalist for 3 years. About a year ago, she upgraded to the Gillo G2k. Lighter weight riser, compared to other Barebow risers.

The dedicated barebow risers have factory drilled holes in the riser, so you can add factory weights, to make the riser bottom heavy. It helps.

Folks who shoot "regular" ilf risers, will just bolt on a tungsten weight on the front stabilizer hole.
This also works quite nicely.


4 ounce tungsten weight, about $60 USD.
If you shoot World Archery events, your riser and the limbs (unstrung) have to pass thru an inspection ring....12.2 cm diameter.

"Fixed weights can be attached to the bottom of the riser, but no other stabilisation or dampers are permitted. The bow must be free of custom marks or devices that assist in aiming. The whole bow, when not strung, must fit through a ring that measures 12.2 centimetres in diameter.

Barebow | World Archery"



Bicycle fork Font Slope Audio equipment Rectangle


The riser is very nice. Has a large range of poundage adjustment, due to a rubber globe under the limb bolts...Gillo innovation. I have had her shooting the Beiter plunger from day 1, nearly 4 years ago. Over-kill back when she was 12 years old, but she was shooting my old riser,
and I pulled off my Beiter plunger from my own Bernardini Luxor riser. Now, 4 years later,
she is shooting at a level where the Beiter plunger makes tuning the bow sooo much easier.

Experiment with the brace height.
Consider a tungsten weight on the front stab hole, to make your bow bottom heavy. It helps when shooting with no sight. Accept the offer from your archery club members,
because dialing in the center serving outside diameter, for a PERFECT nock fit
helps your accuracy, noticeably...when shooting with no sights.

I want the nock to slide easily up and down the center serving,
but want the nock ears to hold the weight of the arrow, when the string is horizontal.
THEN, with ONE sharp tap of the index finger, I want the arrow nock to release the arrow.

THIS is the perfect nock fit. I will make a bowstring, experimental one, with the string jig posts only 6-inches apart, to test the recipe. Different colors of the bowstring material, can have a different thickness, slightly. So, how does 24-strands fit? So, how does 22 strands fit?
I will play with serving thread diameter. Like to use the Halo 0.017 size.

So, if the 22 strands if a little too thin, you lay a strand of the serving thread next to all the strands of the bowstring, to increase the outside diameter of the center serving. I will wrap a 1-inch long TEST length of center serving, and test the nock fit.

THIS way, you sneak up on the perfect recipe for the custom recurve bowstring,
for YOUR nocks, your arrows. Work with one of your archery club mates, and make the perfect string for YOU. Your accuracy will take the next level increase.
 

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Thanks a lot.
I have tried aiming and send the shafts to Valhalla when they sail over the butt. Gap shooting and string walking are like quantum physics to me.
Being instinctive and mainly target with a little bit of field, I'm wasting money on expensive risers right?
BB seems my happy place and having a Gillo riser would be silly if I'm not bolting on sights and stabilzers trying to make my own TV aerial.

Congrats on your students achievement.
String walking is not too complicated. Find a mate in your archery club who can teach you string walking. The accuracy from string walking can be simply amazing.
 

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I bought a Cartel fantom edge for my entry bow and have had two limb tip delaminations in 6 months. First time was the upper limb tip dampener?(not sure of the correct term for the little speedbump on the front near the d-loop) and the second time was the bottom limb, same spot.

The first occasion was fairly traumatic as it broke a $40 fastflight string but luckily the arrow shot and I didn't dry fire the bow. The noise and confusion was jarring, to say the least. The vendor to his credit did a straight swap under warranty.

Just yesterday the second failure occured but my string survived.
I've read there are known issues with the fantom limbs, after some investigation and said vendor is now suggesting I am the one causing the problem somehow.

He kept inferring FF strings are the cause and won't just swap out the limbs this time. To get any joy I'm going to have to wait for the limbs to be sent to Korea.
Great.

AFAIK fantom limbs should handle FF no problem.
The bow is 70" and my brace height was around 8" , the limbs 38#.

I bought a new set of Topoint endevour limbs because a couple of guys at my club who win everything use them and swear by them. For a cheaper Chinese brand they seem to make Cartel look very ordinary.
They come with cool padded limb bags, whereas the fantom came in thin plastic condom bags which are worthless.

The design of the endeavour is also superior. The aforementioned dampeners are molded as part of the limb and Cartel stick theirs on. I'm no engineer, but this seems a really awful process and invites failure.

Sorry for the TL/DR short story, but if you've made it this far I ask you this....

Could these failures be occuring because of any of the following
reasons?

1. Brace height at 8" instead of 9", which was suggested by a third party.
2. Cartel are inherently flawed.
3. Fastflight strings are the mobster garrottes of the archery world.
4. I'm black cat/broken mirror/voodoo curse levels of unlucky.

Any insights or similar stories appreciated greatly.

I will submit the limbs for a warranty claim, but doing so requires an hour long drive to the vendor and however long it will take to ship the limbs to Korea. View attachment 7625637
Nuts&Bolts is helping you better than I could, just some added random thoughts:

Stay away from Cartel for limbs or anything that wears. For those specific limbs the fact that they apparently don't produce them over 40lbs is a warning sign to me that screams "we have no faith in these, do not for the love of god stress them in any way."
I'd stay away from Topoint for the same reason, and I'm a little surprised to hear people winning competitions praising them.
I have some Topoint stuff, and it's not necessarily bad at all, I've a stab of theirs that's perfectly OK - but it does tend to be a knockoff, and not necessarily even much cheaper than more reputable brands' offerings.
If they work, great! If they end up failing and you need to replace them at your own expense, though... you're not saving money anymore.

Don't order strings from the UK if you're in AUS. You'll pay far far too much and any difference in quality will be negligible. I'd just look around and try some local options, even if you have to try a few you'll be far cheaper off in the long run.

Do you have a coach? It's really hard as a recurve beginner to judge how much weight you can handle or not while still properly expanding and aligning.

This is not a putdown of you, but: "I'm a big strong bloke and I can handle more weight" is the most common mistake new archers make and it's not harmless- correcting incorrect form that has been ingrained through years of short-drawing or snap shooting is hard. I know because I've been there.

You're saying the lighter bows felt like a child's toy - but ideally that's what a recurve at a weight you're truly in control of and can hold at full draw ideally should feel like (assuming the dw's not so light the release becomes unforgiving)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Nuts&Bolts is helping you better than I could, just some added random thoughts:

Stay away from Cartel for limbs or anything that wears. For those specific limbs the fact that they apparently don't produce them over 40lbs is a warning sign to me that screams "we have no faith in these, do not for the love of god stress them in any way."
I'd stay away from Topoint for the same reason, and I'm a little surprised to hear people winning competitions praising them.
I have some Topoint stuff, and it's not necessarily bad at all, I've a stab of theirs that's perfectly OK - but it does tend to be a knockoff, and not necessarily even much cheaper than more reputable brands' offerings.
If they work, great! If they end up failing and you need to replace them at your own expense, though... you're not saving money anymore.

Don't order strings from the UK if you're in AUS. You'll pay far far too much and any difference in quality will be negligible. I'd just look around and try some local options, even if you have to try a few you'll be far cheaper off in the long run.

Do you have a coach? It's really hard as a recurve beginner to judge how much weight you can handle or not while still properly expanding and aligning.

This is not a putdown of you, but: "I'm a big strong bloke and I can handle more weight" is the most common mistake new archers make and it's not harmless- correcting incorrect form that has been ingrained through years of short-drawing or snap shooting is hard. I know because I've been there.

You're saying the lighter bows felt like a child's toy - but ideally that's what a recurve at a weight you're truly in control of and can hold at full draw ideally should feel like (assuming the dw's not so light the release becomes unforgiving)
I have a number of coaches, insofar as veteran members of our range happily share their knowledge with me. I am also very grateful for their advice. The range owner has a philosophy of NOT spending weeks learning the minutae of archery before letting new archers shoot. We have come and try begginer classes that are very popular and after 2hrs people have shot 100+ arrows and numerous balloons, leaving them all smiles and often eager for more.

Other clubs often take weeks to get where we are in 2hrs and that is fine.
We have all types of club members, from competitive serious archers to people like me who are just enjoying themselves. One of our guys is currently in Vegas shooting a comp, yet one of our casual, self-taught guys out-shot him to win the overall prize this year AND the bonus point prize money. Go figure.

Our #3 archer uses Topoint and is also uncoached.

As for poundage, you make a good point. Personally I shot for 4 hours yesterday at 36# and feel fine.
Everyone is different and everyones archery journey has a different path and destination.
 
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