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Discussion Starter #1
In my opinion US archery is comprised of a political system in which if you are not "connected" you are out.

I don't believe those who are passionate and dedicated about the sport get the support they need.

I believe many devoted and great coaches go by the wayside because they weren't in the "in group" and didn't know the right people. After all, archery is extremely expensive, especially for coaches who donate their time and the substantial amount of money it takes to keep their status with US archery. I believe good coaches are lost because they can't "afford" to be certified even though their intentions are more sincere than others.

Of course these are merely my opinions
 

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Adnoh,

I am sorry that you feel that way. If you would like to discuss your specific problem, please feel free to contact me through email or by [email protected] or 727/389-3264
 

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In my opinion US archery is comprised of a political system in which if you are not "connected" you are out.

I don't believe those who are passionate and dedicated about the sport get the support they need.

I believe many devoted and great coaches go by the wayside because they weren't in the "in group" and didn't know the right people. After all, archery is extremely expensive, especially for coaches who donate their time and the substantial amount of money it takes to keep their status with US archery. I believe good coaches are lost because they can't "afford" to be certified even though their intentions are more sincere than others.

Of course these are merely my opinions

I want to be very carful what I say because there are some people in this sport who are very vindictive. That said,
I do agree with you about the coaching certifications.
Every time I ask how I get a re-certified I get a different story about how and what to do. And the cost is ridiculous and hard to find a class that I don’t have to take off a ton work (losing more money) and pay for a class that costs $$$.
They are losing coaches, and more and more are just not bothering to become certified in the first place which is going to cause more issues down the road.
 

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Genesis 21:20
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Life is what you make of it.

So is the NAA.

If you want to feel like an outsider (or expect others to do a lot for you) you will be proved right and will be dissapointed. However, if you pull on your gloves and do your homework, I think you'll find that all the information you need is available to you.

The NAA includes some of the finest people I've ever met. And a few turds. Just like the rest of our lives...

I certainly wasn't an "insider" in 2004. In fact, nobody in the NAA had ever heard of me. But that didn't stop me from making USAT and the Olympic team. I just read the rules, followed them, used the information available to me (all on-line, even then) and prepared as well as I could.

I certainly didn't expect anyone in a non-profit organization to hold my hand. Been involved in too many non-profits to think that. Most, including the NAA, get by on a shoestring budget and volunteer help.

John
 

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I re-certifed my coaching credentials through NADA, whom I think largely handles this now. It was fairly painless and, though busy, I found people to be very helpful. I can see where it would be a problem if you needed to take a class and there was no one local to give it. We are fortunate in Alaska to have an experienced instructor, although he lives north of here in Fairbanks. We had him come down several years ago and instruct a group of us which was less expensive that all of us traveling to him.
 

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Well I would Like to add. I just took my Community Coach Class here in GA. The $$$ is high but somtimes you get that you pay for. I got in to coaching after helping with the JOAD at our Club. I felt I owed it to the Kids. Learning the RIGHT way to start them off. Not just anyone can coach.The time with no pay is hard sometimes but I did not get in to this for the money.
I was also happy to hear Diane Watson became USAA JOAD Coordinator I had dealt with her when she was with PSE. She always would help anyway she could. I guess I am Luck here in GA the Georgia Archery Association guys have let this old Hunter/3D guy become part of the family. With all the questions I have had they always pointed me in the right direction. I know Diane would be the same way. As someone said "don't let one apple spoil the bunch". I don't fill that if you are not "connected" you are out because thay let me in. If you don't ask then they can't help. I love this sport and ALL parts of it.
 

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Many Arizona State Archery Association member took advantage of the USA Archery Coach certification grants to become Community and High Performance level certified. The ASAA went so far as to bring Lloyd Brown in to teach the Community Coach Course.

The newly certified then conducted Beginner and Intermediate level course in AZ (one is coming up in January). Taking the USAA lead, the Arizona State Archery Association began to offer grants to take the instructor certification class if they committed to helping at a JOAD, starting a club, or running a club.

The USAA Grants and ASAA Grants allow those with limited funds to become certified. The archery community benefits by having more trained instructors and coaches actively making contact and coaching and instructing.

I think this is a great model to follow. The hope is to have enough certified to be ready to take on the flood of new archers that are coming from all sorts of programs like NASP, ASAP, Scouts, Expos, Game and Fish programs, etc.

The hope is also to give the archers a solid form foundations so they can move up easily if without drastic form changes if they should be found to have an archery competition talent.
Here is the sad thing. A December Arizona instructors course was canceled due to a lack of interest. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. We need a tone more potential coaches and instructors what want to drink.

For that matter, we need more active state associations.
I could go on and on...sorry
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Interesting responses

Who has responded and how involved in the "system" are they? Just wondering.
 

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report card

Report card:
A: major strides forward
B: *
C: status quo
D: *
F: needs improvement

We belong to both the NAA and NFAA. I have no agenda other than to share thoughts as a parent with kids that do archery just for fun. Sorry to say, we are part of the “out crowd” due to our non-existent connections.

I feel that the NAA is in an era of reform so I graded accordingly based on expectations and quality of reform on all of the fronts (by-laws & high performance rewrite, membership, coaching and athlete development, budgets, FITA alignment, etc). In times of reform you either love or hate the changes. There’s no middle ground with change thus, getting a “C” is nearly impossible in times of change. Bottom-line, the NAA management has restored confidence and is moving the organization forward in a positive manner. I sincerely believe that we will medal in 2012.

I feel that the NFAA is in an era of maintenance due to poor economy on one front while relocating physically and doing their best to retain membership. In times of maintenance a high score would be a “C” as the main goal is to not loose ground. Bottom-line, the NFAA is doing a great job keeping archery fun and very competitive at a domestic level.


INFRASTRUCTURE (NAA / NFAA)
a) marketing: F / F
b) fiduciary: ? / ?
c) historical records & enterprise docs: C / F

MANAGEMENT (NAA / NFAA)
a) managing expectations: A / A
b) transparency: A / A
c) conflict resolution: A / C

RESULTS (NAA / NFAA)
a) non-competitive programs: A / C
b) competitive programs: A / F
c) elite results: C / A
 

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Sorry to say, we are part of the “out crowd” due to our non-existent connections.
Then you would say that the NAA needs to be more inclusive with its membership? I'm just trying to clarify a little bit.

I think some may feel that they are being left out, and I can see how it is possible to get that from our first experience with the NAA. I can suggest that you attend a national event or two if you want to get connections. Volenteering at an event, or even your local club might be a good start too.

When the Dream Team first came about, we felt a little out as well. I've learned since that it's a little less "exclusive" than it may seem at first. If you have an interest in the programs that the NAA has, approach one of the coaches. JOAD Nationals or US Nationals is probably the best place to be guaranteed to find one of them, but occasionally you may find one otherwise.

You need to put yourself out there. Go ahead and make the first contact. I'm sure you'll be surprised at how receptive everyone really is.
 

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Then you would say that the NAA needs to be more inclusive with its membership? I'm just trying to clarify a little bit.

I think some may feel that they are being left out, and I can see how it is possible to get that from our first experience with the NAA. I can suggest that you attend a national event or two if you want to get connections. Volenteering at an event, or even your local club might be a good start too.

When the Dream Team first came about, we felt a little out as well. I've learned since that it's a little less "exclusive" than it may seem at first. If you have an interest in the programs that the NAA has, approach one of the coaches. JOAD Nationals or US Nationals is probably the best place to be guaranteed to find one of them, but occasionally you may find one otherwise.

You need to put yourself out there. Go ahead and make the first contact. I'm sure you'll be surprised at how receptive everyone really is.
The NAA is doing fine to include members in my book.

However, the reference was in response to Adnoh's initial post - I am just an average Joe. Unlike Adnoh I don't feel like they have excluded any of their members but I am not what you would call a person with "insider knowledge" of anything archery related.
 

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Genesis 21:20
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When the Dream Team first came about, we felt a little out as well. I've learned since that it's a little less "exclusive" than it may seem at first.
Indeed. The initial reaction to the JDT was, at times, dramatic. But in all fairness, determining who gets to be included in any "exclusive" group is always a catch-.22. The entire idea of organizing exclusive groups is going to ruffle feathers for any person who's not included. But sometimes you have to draw the line somewhere, because you just can't include everyone in everything... That's when feelings get hurt. It's an unfortunate side effect of identifying "groups."

But like you say, the JDT, and indeed other groups like USAT, are much less "exclusive" that meets the eye.

We sometimes forget that everyone was a nobody at one time... all of us would do well to remind ourselves of that from time to time... heck, some of us actually prefer being nobody's :p

John.
 

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Who has responded and how involved in the "system" are they? Just wondering.
Look at their profile and see who they are. Some pretty involved folks on here.
 

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Who has responded and how involved in the "system" are they? Just wondering.
I'll answer this as a relative outsider (being a "new" Level II instructor).

I'll preface this by saying that I've coached or taught various sports over an 19 year period of time, including Volleyball, Baseball (with one Junior Olympian pitcher), Firearms, and now Archery.

Frankly, I got into archery for two reasons. One - I haven't gotten drawn for hunting in 8 years (at the time I got into it...it's now 9 years that I haven't gotten drawn). The other is that my son got into it pretty heavily. Then I got into target and haven't looked back since.

With that being said, I've seen that in some areas within the world governing bodies, archery is a very insular society. It's my view that if a certain governing body had it's way, we all would be shooting bows without training wheels.

With that being said, I have some minor nits about archery, and I have compared it to other shooting sports as well as other sports in general.

One minor nit is that we've spent too much time cherrypicking, and less time developing the sport in general.

There are coaches, clubs, and organizations (everywhere, so I'm not just picking where I'm at) that spend more time gleaning the rare golden egg and discarding those who aren't olympic material instead of developing the talent pool we have.

Second nit - we're too fractionalized as a sport. I'll pick on the shooting sports - you have multiple manufacturers (Glock/Colt/S&W/Ruger/etc.) hitting up multiple segments of shooting (Tactical/USPSA/IPSC/Cowboy Action), but still having some level of unity. They all know that if they get together to get shooters, all of them will win. A prime example is Randi Rogers - she started in Cowboy Action, added IDPA, and started tearing it up there.

And - the pistol/rifle shooting shows will feature the "normal" guy. Cowboys (a show on the Sportsman Channel that features exclusively on Cowboy Action Shooting) and Shooting USA will always feature things on normal, everyday shooters.

Do you see that in Archery? No.

In archery - everyone is trying to outdo the other. If it's not speeds and feeds, it's something else. Gunmakers band together to complain about Brady issues or to help promote the sport. Yes, they compete against each other, but you know darned well that if one gunmaker got into a lawsuit, the other gunmakers start filing Amicus briefs to help the other guy out.

We don't see that level of coopetition here in archery. A great example - you have two competing school programs (ASAP and NASP) run by two different organizations. One is successful. One is not.

The successful one (NASP) is extremely closed minded. Their level of success is based upon sheer PE numbers and not necessarily the club level which will generate a good solid foundation for future archers. And the funding agency for NASP doesn't care either.

And in my mind, NASP is an utter failure. I've thrown a gauntlet down (even offering archery related product as an incentive) to have someone name me a single archer on a pro, Olympian, or even high end semi-pro or amateur level that can lay claim to having NASP as their foundation for being a successful archer.

There isn't one who's responded with an answer.

I can't even say that Mathews will garner sales from their attempts at NASP. Why? They make no attempts or overtures to have NASP archers go beyond their 15 and 10 meter range and learn what's outside of that little world. That's being an insular society. Yet, they are called a success. How can getting a bow into the hand of a kid for all of 4-6 weeks be a success when they don't pick it up after the class?

The third nit - this one will likely generate some stir. We (as an American society) do not work well with a strict, organized structure.

I've used the Karolyi's as an example in other threads. They are (without a doubt) the main reason why the USA is currently a gymnastics powerhouse. They also have generated a huge amount of controversy with their structure and strictness.

Is that level of success and controversy a surprise? To me - No. But if you look at how they grew their "organization", you can see why it's successful. Get a successful program together (read - win medals). Train other coaches to be in that same train of thought as the masters. Let them loose.

Johnny Appleseed the thing to where you now have Karolyi trained coaches owning gymnastic shops and training centers all over the US. It helps with their grassroots efforts AND it gets an immediate "in" for that rare nugget of talent that comes through.

Do we have that methodology here with archery? No. It's not just a "no", it's more of a "hell, no!".

I realize that there has been some attempts at making inroads on the issue. But until we get more instructors and coaches, we aren't going to make it. Coach Lee's method needs more people to get involved with it - spread it around....just like what Bela Karolyi did. Unfortunately, KSL's efforts are harder right now - he needs to get some Olympic wins in 2012 to help further his efforts.

Manpower is still going to be key if we are to be successful. I'll use this as an example. I just helped migrate a bunch of NASP club kids to the wonderful world of outdoor FITA. They just shot their first FITA 900 this past weekend. One shooter got a 625 out of 900 shooting at distances she's never shot at before. Those 10 kids that I'm helping migrate is the max that I could handle, even with their NASP instructor involved.

If I can handle a max of 10 kids, and we (collective "we" from a USA Archery perspective) are supposed to attempt to get more NASP kids into the fold, there's no way we can handle things with the current instructor list we have now, even taking just 1 percent of current NASP shooters out there.

So, there's still work to be done. Lots of it. Some of it can be changed from a USA Archery perspective. Some has to come from a local level.

Change begins when someone decides that they are tired of the status quo and attempts to make a difference. I know I'm making changes and inroads despite the fact that bureaucracy exists. I have the support of my fellow instructors/coaches and the state Archery association.

If I don't get the support from the national level - piffle...who cares! Change begins locally, then spreads outwards. Success changes people's minds. Become a success locally and then you can influence far more things regionally or nationally.

-Steve
 

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ASAP and NASP are not 2 competing school programs. NASP is an in-school 2 week program which you are familiar with, but ASAP is a community archery program geared to community organizations and community recreation departments and structured to give NASP archers a place to go and transition into "main stream" archery.

ASAP has only been around for a bit over a year and NASP State Coordinators (DNR and F&WS folks) are starting to implement ASAP programs to complement their NASP initiatives.

Give ASAP a little time as a transition program.
 

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I'll disagree about NASP being a 2 week program. The successful NASP school programs not only have a PE component, it has a club program as well. The schools that place well at the local NASP tournaments have a club component.

Here in my neck of the woods, Arizona Game and Fish has yet to get any sort of ASAP program started.

Now, in their defense, the new coordinator is just getting her feet wet. But - if the new AZGFD coordinator isn't going to attend Arizona State Archery Association meetings (like the one she blew off this past weekend, but RSVP'd for), I don't know if she's gonna be better than her predecessors and will help get any ASAP programs going.

-Steve
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And I diagree with the Karolyi comparison. As a former gymnastics coach who worked for Karolyi and Gizi Oltean in Houston... Karolyi didn't teach others how to coach, he took their students.
Okay....so I'm on the outside looking in on that example. (Didn't know you were a Karolyi related gymnastics coach). A former co-worker came out of the Karolyi based combine when she was a gymnast. She used to tell stuff about what went on.

But, you do have to admit that if you look at the "relationship" standpoint, bearing back from the 1990's where you had Shannon Miller and others - a lot of the girls then weren't personally trained by Karolyi, but they were from some coaches that he trained.

If I remember my sports history correctly (yeah, I'm a huge trivia buff), Karolyi or his coaching offspring trained the 1992 team. Not that the '92 team was a wonderful success.

But, I do see some parallels. Not the beatings and stuff (just kidding on that...), but the unification attempts in standardizing training, in both technique and terminology.

Frankly, there's some merit to it. And, if you look at it, the system would technically work. IIRC, there's an article floating on the intrawebs somewhere stating that in the Korean system, if you had a flaw as an archer, every coach would see the same flaw and correct it the same way.

Coming from a former law enforcement training background, that's not a bad thing. AZPOST instructors (Arizona Police Officer Standards and Training) in the firearms realm will teach the same methodologies with regards to loading a pistol or rifle, reloading it, holstering it/slinging it, drawing it/presenting it, high/low ready positions, etc. You call items the same - a magazine is a magazine, not a clip. A bullet is the projectile that goes downrange. A round is what you load into a magazine or into the chamber and consists of bullet, powder, primer, and case. So on, so forth.

Now, I'm not advocating a paramilitary or military method of training - we aren't training the next line of defense here. But, we can take some of these methodologies and apply them to a best practice in archery.

And, I don't mean to sound petty, so please don't take this next comment in that way....

When an archer becomes an RA - there's no practical way that their home coach can stick with them - they have to be absorbed by the coach at the facility the RA's stay in.

Using Brady as an example - Mel could theoretically travel back and forth between Chula Vista and his home in the Phoenix area. Is it practical? Not really. I know Mel does go to Chula Vista, but not on an everyday basis to coach.

Is that poaching by Coach KSL because he's there? I don't think so.

It may not be apples and oranges. But it's close enough of a parallel. There is an expectation on a certain level where the national coach will take over parts of that athlete's training.

I see it in my other coaching hat I wear in baseball. I helped coach a pitcher to a Junior Olympic (now called the 16U) level. There was a point where I had to concede some control over to the guys at USA Baseball and the national team trial coaches. I don't consider that stealing...it's part of the game to me.

If you want, and if you're shooting league tonight, we can talk about this more offline at the shop....

-Steve
 

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I'll disagree about NASP being a 2 week program. The successful NASP school programs not only have a PE component, it has a club program as well. The schools that place well at the local NASP tournaments have a club component.

Here in my neck of the woods, Arizona Game and Fish has yet to get any sort of ASAP program started.

Now, in their defense, the new coordinator is just getting her feet wet. But - if the new AZGFD coordinator isn't going to attend Arizona State Archery Association meetings (like the one she blew off this past weekend, but RSVP'd for), I don't know if she's gonna be better than her predecessors and will help get any ASAP programs going.

-Steve
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There's a difference in what the NASP was designed to be and what successful schools are doing. Any school or school system is able to take their program beyond the two-week curriculum.

I just sat beside Tanja Washburn and Mike Raum for 3 days at the ATA Summit and listened to them and 21 other state coordinators talk about their NASP efforts. I know what NASP is doing. I might also add that Diane Watson and Lorretta Sinclair did a great job of presenting JOAD and USCA to the members present at the meeting and there were many discussions about how to transition NASP archers into mainstream archery clubs.

I disagree with the statement that people are being left out of what NAA is doing. I think the leadership is trying to make this organization into one that has a place for all members and member groups. If anyone feels left out it's because they haven't tried to open the door.

JMHO
 

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Discussion Starter #20
money spent for what?

Personally I think a lot of people put a great deal of effort, time, heart and money into becoming certified coaches and it got them no where. In my humble opinion I feel that you need a lot of money and time to move up in the organization.
 
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