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As to the books, the are the only access most people will ever have to hearing Coach Lee's words "directly" aside from the KSL website. I find learning motion from static pictures in books to be very, very hard. But I also find learning second or third hand with no reference videos or books to check on thing, perhaps, even harder, and teaching, even more so. Not sure what the answer is on that. But I do think that USA Archery needs to step up to the plate and offer supplemental training materials for instructors and students--more than just the coaching manuals. I'd like a website I can point new students to that has all the coaching manual stuff in it from a students perspective. Some people learn better through a combination of means.
I second this. I've seen Brady's Next Level videos and while quite good, they lack depth or specifics. Inside the Archer should have a web companion, where specific videos reference what is being talked about and shown in the book.
 

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If something is so complex that it is too difficult to manage, then it is probably not the way to go. There is a great book out there that will help most people. The SIMPLE Art of Winning.
 

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I second this. I've seen Brady's Next Level videos and while quite good, they lack depth or specifics. Inside the Archer should have a web companion, where specific videos reference what is being talked about and shown in the book.
Yeah, I've got to say those videos are disappointing. Brady is awesome, but he's new to making instructional videos. Lots of experts have trouble with that.

And Inside the Archer needs a couple of web videos--the RAs and JDTs may not need them having direct access to Coach Lee and his immediate disciples (well, if they deign to work with a particular archer) but they are a tiny, tiny minority of those who are being trained in some variant of NTS by USA Archery instructors.

Sometimes when you mention Inside the Archer, or the Astra shot trainer, Tyler magically shows up in the forum. Once, when he did so, I mentioned that a couple of simple videos were really needed, exemplars of the idealized NTS system, not what it looks like once personalized by Tyler or Brady. I note that Tyler probably already has a camera that would be just fine for making such a video and it doesn't need to be anything fancy. I even volunteered to do post production on such a video. But he seemed very uninterested in doing so--he's a very talented guy, but also very business oriented. I don't think he saw a big enough profit in the video examples as opposed to the very nicely laid out but very expensive book that he got USA Archer to make required reading.

Given that, I think it is USA Archery's responsibility to put up video exemplars. The NTS system is supposed to be rolled out nationwide, and a version of it is taught even in the Level 1 manuals. And they tell instructors that they can show students a video if the instructor can't model the shot sequence perfectly (or they did when I took them). But there is no *exemplar* provided by USA Archery for this purpose.
 

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"Yes, it is rare that the same coach is equally effective with male and female archers. It takes a certain kind of person to coach the women. It doesn't always have to be a woman either, in fact, most of the time, the best coach for women is a male coach. But, women are different in that if they don't trust you first, they don't care what you know... And they usually want to know "why" you're asking them to do something. Men can usually just do it without asking for an explanation. These are critical differences that many men don't get. Especially if they haven't been married or have daughters of their own...

Too often, coaches are "talking down" to female archers, without even realizing it. I can tell you this is a show-stopper!

Communication is everthing."

So true. I watched that happen with my daughter's softball team. The (pregnant) female coach quit early in the season due to come pregnancy issues, and the school brought in a former junior high football male coach for the rest of the year - total disaster. Continual exodus of players from the team, low morale, seething disharmony ... not pleasant or productive.

My favorite portrayal of this dynamic (coaching females versus males) was an article in Sports Illustrated in the Nineties about the legendary U of North Carolina soccer coach Anson Dorrance (15 national championships in 19 years) ... Here's the link, and also one of the insightful excerpts ....

""Here's an example," he says. "I had this guy warm up my team in the early '80s. He was studying exercise physiology at UNC, and it was unbelievable what he did: The women were in a lather, doing agility stuff—just an incredible warmup. They were so ready to play, and I was thinking, A gift has been given to me. But a month and a half into the season, our morale was shot. I couldn't put my finger on it. Finally we went back to our old warmup: The girls come to the field, put on their shoes for five or 10 minutes, and in groups of twos and threes they catch up on their lives. Then they jog around the field and end up in a place out of my earshot, stretching. But they're not really stretching. They're socializing. Our morale returned in two weeks.

"It was a wonderful lesson, a reminder of what's important. Men put their shoes on, they stretch, they play. But our team socializes at every opportunity, and that's as much a reason for our success as the fitness training we do. That 15 minutes it takes for them to put their shoes on and jog around and stretch is a total waste of time, but it's critical for team-building.""


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1014737/1/index.htm
 

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You cant coach passion. Someone could have the best form on the planet, but if they did not have the want and need to win, they wont. Period. I have never been coached myself and those that know me know how successfull I have been. Not because i was ever part of a team or a top student or even a member of a club of other shooters, but because I wanted to be the best i could be and i had a will and desire to win.
 

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Yeah, I've got to say those videos are disappointing. Brady is awesome, but he's new to making instructional videos. Lots of experts have trouble with that.

And Inside the Archer needs a couple of web videos--the RAs and JDTs may not need them having direct access to Coach Lee and his immediate disciples (well, if they deign to work with a particular archer) but they are a tiny, tiny minority of those who are being trained in some variant of NTS by USA Archery instructors.

Sometimes when you mention Inside the Archer, or the Astra shot trainer, Tyler magically shows up in the forum. Once, when he did so, I mentioned that a couple of simple videos were really needed, exemplars of the idealized NTS system, not what it looks like once personalized by Tyler or Brady. I note that Tyler probably already has a camera that would be just fine for making such a video and it doesn't need to be anything fancy. I even volunteered to do post production on such a video. But he seemed very uninterested in doing so--he's a very talented guy, but also very business oriented. I don't think he saw a big enough profit in the video examples as opposed to the very nicely laid out but very expensive book that he got USA Archer to make required reading.

Given that, I think it is USA Archery's responsibility to put up video exemplars. The NTS system is supposed to be rolled out nationwide, and a version of it is taught even in the Level 1 manuals. And they tell instructors that they can show students a video if the instructor can't model the shot sequence perfectly (or they did when I took them). But there is no *exemplar* provided by USA Archery for this purpose.
The trickle-down theory is working in Arizona. Nathan Yamaguchi, a dream team member, put on separate clinics for youth and adult archers as a charity fund raiser. I attended this and got some excellent instruction from he and his father, who was assisting him.
 

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Nathan is young man who is both talented and a really good person. He is staying with my two JDT kids now and he has been out to our range the last several days. He also was helping at a summer archery camp Lizard ran this last week. He is an excellent instructor and a credit to the sport.

I have had three club members on JDT-including the first year version and the current version. I had another boy turn it down and my son is sort of thinking about it after he shot a qualifying score this last weekend. I have mixed feelings about it. I believe the twins would have been top archers with or without it. Since I own the range they train on, I know how much they train. Plus they have 3-4 coaches in this area including one up on the "current" system as well as arguably the best archer in history.

I just don't know if I can allow my son to miss that much school. Plus he wants to play HS tennis-his HS has the #2 and #3 players in the entire state so he has a good chance of being on a couple state championship teams I also have mixed emotions about the current wisdom of making 14-16 year old kids basically give up other activities. we will see
 

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We've come a long way with JDT to even be able to have a civil discussion with many mixed opinions here. I applaud all who have contribued. Several great perspectives, and important points, have been raised. This should be "must read" material for prospective JDT parents IMO.

John
 

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You will get as many answers to this question as there are members of the JDT. You wil not get the full story on AT, even from me. Opinions will vary based on personal experiences. My daughters experience has been positive overall, but people just coming into the program will have a very different experience mainly because the program has evolved over time. The JDT was originally conceived as a bridge between the RA program and JOAD clubs. The JDT was a developmental program with the emphasis on learning a new form. Over time it has become a score oriented competition team. Camps are spent shooting in some form of competition for nearly 3 days out of a typical 5 day camp. Perhaps two days per camp are spent in rectification, working in 4/5 person groups with an elite coach.

With the camps now being held 3 times per year, you get 48 hours/year of group coaching for the cost of traveling to the OTC three times. For us that works out to about $30/hr of coaching. However the cost of attending the camps is just the tip of the iceberg. The majority of the outlays are incurred attending the required USAT competitions. Each archer is required to attend enough tournaments to get a national rankiing. Many of the more competitive archers will attend most, if not all of the USAT tournaments. The more tournaments you attend, the higher the athlete's KPI (key performance indicator) ranking. If one Includes airfare for the athlete and one or two parents, hotel, car rental and meals, the tab can easily approach $ 8k/year. Additionally, students are strongly encouraged to purchase top of the line equipment. Sometimes the pressure to buy the latest equipment comes from their peers, but it also comes from the coaches. Discounts apply, but expect to spend big bucks.

In return, if you are one of the top 4 male or female shooters on the JDT you will typically get to travel to one fully funded international event per year. Traveling internationally, learning to compete in unfamiliar surroundings, eating food you don't recognize, experiencing new cultures, making new friends, and building self esteem are hard to put a dollar value on.

Most JDT members also get regular help in the form of SKYPE coaching sessions each week. The volunteer coaches really do put in a ton of time with these kids. The perceived value of being a JDT member, will to a large extent, depend your relationship with your assigned JDT coach.

Finally, if you want to learn NTS at a very high level, there is no substitute for access to Coach Lee. We have trained many capable NTS coaches over the years, but nobody comes close to Coach Lee, except perhaps his wife, Ha Park, who is a really excellent coach in her own right. Access to Coach Lee is the reason Michelle is still a member of the JDT.

Michelle has had the best possible experience one could expect with the JDT. I am not saying this is typical. In fact most parents and athletes have had very different experiences with the JDT. If you want to understand the pros and cons of the JDT, just privately approach any JDT parent and I promise, you will get an earful. I typically spend 1 or 2 hours a day on the phone with other JDT parents. Believe me when I say, there are many, many incredible stories out there. Sometimes I think I missed my calling as a therapist.:rolleyes: I could make lots more money being a therapist to JDT parents than I could ever hope to make as a coach.

Dave
I couldn't agree more that you will get a million different answers to this question. I will say that if you only spend $8k per year attending all the events and JDT camps that you are one of the lucky ones. We almost always spent $10-15k per year, year after year. Would I change any of that...no way. There are other things I would do differently but providing my daughter with the opportunities she got was amazing.

What I will caution you about is the coaching. Just because they are a JDT coach does not mean they are an "Elite" Coach. There are coaches on that team that will screw up your child and even injure your child. Now don't get me wrong, there are also many "Elite" coaches on that team. I realize they all likely have that title but that does not mean they can coach or that they truly understand Coach Lee's method. Kiley had Coach Lee correct many things that she was taught directly from coaches on JDT. I have seen coaches on JDT run archers into the ground verbally and made them cry and still did not let up. I might add it was over something usually very stupid too. But when you have an amazing experience like Kiley had on the Red Team trip to Pan Am Championships where Coach Dee Falks stood behind her and coached her to a Bronze medal you step back and kind of remember only those good things. I was asked by Denise Parker why we stayed on the JDT though all of what Kiley went through and the answer was always exactly what Dave points out "access to Coach Lee". He can correct something so quickly and detect form errors immediately. It is amazing to watch.

But one thing I will differ from in Dave's post is that the Red Team is NOT the top four archers it is Coach Lee's pick. So don't think if you are top four in USAT that someone behind you won't get selected over you. It has happened and still happens. It is Coach Lee's team and he can and will do what he wants.

The other issue is that it is a political land mind field. You have to be very careful what you and who you say it to. You would not think this to be true but because of what I am doing on the Ted Stevens Act there is no way Kiley could safely compete at this time. I know many will scoff at that comment but if you knew what I know about USAA you would understand and there are many who have posted in this thread would tell you the same thing.

I won't tell you it's a bad program because it isn't. You just need to have your eyes and ears open. Make sure you understand the coaches and get as much information as possible from a wide range of folks regarding each coach. What John tells you about a coach and what I tell you about a coach will be from two different perspectives and two different situations so the opinions will vary greatly. That does not say one is more right then the other, it just says understand the source and understand the circumstances that come from behind the situation involved and then make your own decision on what is best for your child.
 

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I couldn't agree more that you will get a million different answers to this question. I will say that if you only spend $8k per year attending all the events and JDT camps that you are one of the lucky ones. We almost always spent $10-15k per year, year after year. Would I change any of that...no way. There are other things I would do differently but providing my daughter with the opportunities she got was amazing.
You are correct Barb. Most will spend $10 to 15k per year, I was thinking more of someone attending the minimum number of tournaments, say nationals and three USAT events. $2k per trip. We always spent way more.

I also agree with your point on the Red Team not necessarily being the top 4 athletes. As you say, Coach Lee picks his team. Those who are chosen for the team are very happy, and those who don't make the team seem to call me to complain. There is no trials process whereby an athlete earns his/her spot on the team in a competition. The lack of an open Red Team selection process is the kind of thing that drives JDT parents nuts and causes my phone to ring off the hook.:rolleyes: Now I must say, Michelle has been the beneficiary of this process (or lack thereof), so who am I to complain.:wink:

Dave
 

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Guess with this new program in place, we get a little glimpse of what it's like to be involved in sport in other countries...

Hope that's what we all want.
 

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If you have not attended camp as a shooter or an observer coach, there is no way you would know the pros or cons. There are just too many kids, too many coaches, and too much politics for it to be a benefit.
Thanks helpful post. Everyone makes the best choices they have for their kids with the information they have available to them. Everyone’s got 20/20 hind sight vision so I’m sure you made the right choice to sign up when you did.

If you don’t mind, what was it you and your kid wanted to get out of the JDT program? Did you achieve your goals? Else where did it fail you?
 

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The JDT teeaches much more than the basic form. They teach many life lessons. They teach the value of hard work, what it takes to be successful., how to both win and lose gracefully. Finally my daughter has become a much more confident, mature young lady and I have to give much credit to the JDT program and coaches for her progress. Is the program perfect? No. Can it be improved? Yes. Is it for everyone? No. Would I do it all over again? Yes

Expenses can be held lower than the $15k/yr that is being thrown about on this thread. One only needs to go to enough tournaments to get a national ranking. I believe that mean you need JOAD Nationals and two other USAT events. No need for all the YEAR events. I would estimate the total costs to be on the order of $6 to 8k per year. Less if you stay and travel with friends.

Overall, the experience has been very good for my daughter.
 

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One con is that once you are assigned a coach it takes an act of congress to get reassigned if you and the coach don't get along. Come to think of it even an act of congress won't likely get it changed.
 
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