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Lowered expectations
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Nobody said speed is irrelevant, it’s just not as important as other factors.

Heavier draw weight = cleaner release plus the ability to shoot a heavier arrow, therefore more momentum. Also, very light bow with very heavy arrow = unable to get sight on target at 70m.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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This is one of those AT things that I don't understand.
Possibly I'm just not processing some of it right.

Most (yes, also on the compound side) will claim speed is irrelevant and point at momentum instead. Also for hunting.
But half of momentum, for initial value at least though not necessarily retention, is speed.

Now: if weight rather than speed is a priority for crosswinds, I can understand that part.
But if speed is irrelevant and weight is everything, why go for the x10 when you could go for more gpi with an even heavier tip if more foc if desired?

If speed is irrelevant, why pull the back end of 40-something pounds? Just cast that heavy arrow at 20 lbs. It'll fly slower, but that's... not relevant somehow.
Everyone's just pulling twice or more that... not to launch the same weight projectile faster to get more momentum... but because they're... masochists?
For a RECURVE shooter,
due to typical recurve arrow speeds,
and shooting 50 meters and shooting 70 meters,
the cross sectional area matters. X10s are smallest diameter for top level recurve arrows. Smallest outside diameter
means less frontal area, for a cross wind to push a recurve arrow sideways.

X10s are HEAVIER than ACE recurve arrows. HEAVIER 400-ish spine arrow means the 400-ish spine X10 is directionally more stable.

Tungsten points that weigh 120 grains, weigh the same as stainless steel 120 grain points.
TUNGSTEN points are higher density than stainless steel points.
So, TUNGSTEN points for a recurve arrow means you get a slightly LARGER FOC, cuz FOC matters for the recurve arrow, in terms of directional stability (tighter groups) when shooting in a cross wind.

This is why RECURVE folks will pay $240 for a dozen TUNGSTEN points,
instead of only $40.

Aluminum arrows are HEAVIER than carbon arrows.
Aluminum arrows are also HEAVIER than a hybrid aluminum core / carbon exterior arrow.

So, just fling an ALUMINUM arrow with 150 grain field points, and the aluminum insert,
at the 90 meter target, 100 yards away, with the 20 lb limbs, right? Well, the outside diameter on the aluminum arrow is HUGE, so an aluminum arrow with 150 grain field points and aluminum insert is not the ideal choice
for a recurve shooter, trying to reach the 90 meter (100 yard) target.

500 SPINE X10 arrow is 0.205 inches outside diameter.
Easton 2114 aluminum arrow is 510 spine, with an outside diameter of 21/64ths = 0.328 inches.
Easton 2212 aluminum arrow is 505 spine, with an outside diameter of 22/64ths = 0.344 inches.

So, the Easton X10 in 500 spine is 62% of the OD for the Easton 2114 arrow.
So, the Easton X10 in 500 spine is 60% of the OD for the Easton 2212 arrow.

So, SIZE matters, meaning Outside Diameter. Go smaller. Shoot X10s, if you are shooting top RECURVE scores
and shoot FITA FIELD or FITA OUTDOOR competition.

So, WEIGHT matters for the RECURVE arrow.

Easton X10 500 spine. 7.8 grains per inch. 0.216 inches OUTSIDE diameter.
Easton A/C/E 520 spine. 6.7 grains per inch. 0.205 inches OUTSIDE diameter.
Easton SuperDrive Micro 520 spine. 6.1 grains per inch. 0.218 inches OUTSIDE diameter.

So, if SPEED is everything, all the TOP recurve shooters would be shooting the Easton SuperDrive Micro arrows.
Nope. They don't.

SMALLEST outside diameter...combined with smallest OUTSIDE diameter matters.
HAND sorted and weight matched and weight codes printed on the label (Easton X10s) also matters.
TUNGSTEN target points for slightly MORE FOC matters.

So, this is why folks who shoot at the TOP levels (recurve) will shoot Hand Sorted and Weight Matched
Easton X10 arrows, along with CRAZY pricey Tungsten Points.

SMALLEST OD. Easton X10 for recurve target arrows.
Highest grains per inch, amount Easton Target Recurve arrows. Easton X10 for recurve target arrows.
TUNGSTEN points. Only for the Easton X10 target arrows, for a reason.

So, for TARGET recurve,
at the top levels,
Easton X10 with Tungsten points...if the RECURVE shooter wants to shoot top of the line Easton target arrows.

Do, top level recurve shooters shoot ALL Carbon arrows?
Absolutely.

Would these top level recurve shooters, shoot BETTER, shoot HIGHER scores if they switched to
Easton X10s with Tungsten points?
Maybe. Maybe not.

WHY not?
Cuz aluminum core, carbon exterior arrows will take a PERMANENT BEND, if you are not careful.
The all carbon arrows are MUCH lower maintenance.

U saying you can UN-BEND an Easton X10?
Possible?
yes.
DIFFICULT to do? Extremely.

I spend an hour per aluminum arrow, to get the bent aluminum arrow back to Easton levels or straightness
or even STRAIGHTER than what comes out of the Easton factory.



Do I shoot Easton X10s with my recurve?
Nope, too pricey and I'm lazy...so I shoot all carbon target recurve arrows.

Do I have students who shoot Easton X10s with tungsten points?
yup. They shoot better than I do.
 

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Can't keep em straight
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I don’t think I have met many top archers who thought much about arrow speed.
And as Stretch said speed isnt important at all on that level.
I guarantee you, arrow speed is one of the least important considerations for a top Olympic division shooter.
SPEED for a recurve is meaningless. SERIOUS.
Speed is not important at all in Olympic recurve archery.
Nobody said speed is irrelevant, it’s just not as important as other factors.
Heh, ok.
 

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Can't keep em straight
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For a RECURVE shooter,
due to typical recurve arrow speeds,
and shooting 50 meters and shooting 70 meters,
the cross sectional area matters. X10s are smallest diameter for top level recurve arrows. Smallest outside diameter
means less frontal area, for a cross wind to push a recurve arrow sideways.

X10s are HEAVIER than ACE recurve arrows. HEAVIER 400-ish spine arrow means the 400-ish spine X10 is directionally more stable.

Tungsten points that weigh 120 grains, weigh the same as stainless steel 120 grain points.
TUNGSTEN points are higher density than stainless steel points.
So, TUNGSTEN points for a recurve arrow means you get a slightly LARGER FOC, cuz FOC matters for the recurve arrow, in terms of directional stability (tighter groups) when shooting in a cross wind.

This is why RECURVE folks will pay $240 for a dozen TUNGSTEN points,
instead of only $40.

Aluminum arrows are HEAVIER than carbon arrows.
Aluminum arrows are also HEAVIER than a hybrid aluminum core / carbon exterior arrow.

So, just fling an ALUMINUM arrow with 150 grain field points, and the aluminum insert,
at the 90 meter target, 100 yards away, with the 20 lb limbs, right? Well, the outside diameter on the aluminum arrow is HUGE, so an aluminum arrow with 150 grain field points and aluminum insert is not the ideal choice
for a recurve shooter, trying to reach the 90 meter (100 yard) target.

500 SPINE X10 arrow is 0.205 inches outside diameter.
Easton 2114 aluminum arrow is 510 spine, with an outside diameter of 21/64ths = 0.328 inches.
Easton 2212 aluminum arrow is 505 spine, with an outside diameter of 22/64ths = 0.344 inches.

So, the Easton X10 in 500 spine is 62% of the OD for the Easton 2114 arrow.
So, the Easton X10 in 500 spine is 60% of the OD for the Easton 2212 arrow.

So, SIZE matters, meaning Outside Diameter. Go smaller. Shoot X10s, if you are shooting top RECURVE scores
and shoot FITA FIELD or FITA OUTDOOR competition.

So, WEIGHT matters for the RECURVE arrow.

Easton X10 500 spine. 7.8 grains per inch. 0.216 inches OUTSIDE diameter.
Easton A/C/E 520 spine. 6.7 grains per inch. 0.205 inches OUTSIDE diameter.
Easton SuperDrive Micro 520 spine. 6.1 grains per inch. 0.218 inches OUTSIDE diameter.

So, if SPEED is everything, all the TOP recurve shooters would be shooting the Easton SuperDrive Micro arrows.
Nope. They don't.

SMALLEST outside diameter...combined with smallest OUTSIDE diameter matters.
HAND sorted and weight matched and weight codes printed on the label (Easton X10s) also matters.
TUNGSTEN target points for slightly MORE FOC matters.

So, this is why folks who shoot at the TOP levels (recurve) will shoot Hand Sorted and Weight Matched
Easton X10 arrows, along with CRAZY pricey Tungsten Points.

SMALLEST OD. Easton X10 for recurve target arrows.
Highest grains per inch, amount Easton Target Recurve arrows. Easton X10 for recurve target arrows.
TUNGSTEN points. Only for the Easton X10 target arrows, for a reason.

So, for TARGET recurve,
at the top levels,
Easton X10 with Tungsten points...if the RECURVE shooter wants to shoot top of the line Easton target arrows.

Do, top level recurve shooters shoot ALL Carbon arrows?
Absolutely.

Would these top level recurve shooters, shoot BETTER, shoot HIGHER scores if they switched to
Easton X10s with Tungsten points?
Maybe. Maybe not.

WHY not?
Cuz aluminum core, carbon exterior arrows will take a PERMANENT BEND, if you are not careful.
The all carbon arrows are MUCH lower maintenance.

U saying you can UN-BEND an Easton X10?
Possible?
yes.
DIFFICULT to do? Extremely.

I spend an hour per aluminum arrow, to get the bent aluminum arrow back to Easton levels or straightness
or even STRAIGHTER than what comes out of the Easton factory.



Do I shoot Easton X10s with my recurve?
Nope, too pricey and I'm lazy...so I shoot all carbon target recurve arrows.

Do I have students who shoot Easton X10s with tungsten points?
yup. They shoot better than I do.
Fair point, I did forget about OD.
 

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(aka lug nut)
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Nobody said speed is irrelevant, it’s just not as important as other factors.

Heavier draw weight = cleaner release plus the ability to shoot a heavier arrow, therefore more momentum. Also, very light bow with very heavy arrow = unable to get sight on target at 70m.
Yup, the more recurve pounds on the fingers, the cleaner the FINGERS release, and actually easier to be consistent at long distance, with more pounds on the fingers. Then, we come into the stamina issue...finishing the ENTIRE recurve tournament still shooting strong. This is the issue I am working on with my 16 year old barebow recurve student. She poops out, runs out of stamina. Slowly building up her endurance. AS the pounds on the fingers go up, the scores go up, the group size shrinks. BUT, it's a slow process.

AT the lower pounds on the fingers for a recurve, gotta use the weaker spine ratings, so the arrows are all carbon to reach out to max shooting distances. As we are able to increase pounds on the fingers, I can switch her to ever stiff spine ratings, and the mass of the arrow gets a little heavier, and the momentum gets better, and the group sizes will get tighter, with the higher pounds on the fingers, cuz of the heavier arrow. I have her arrows using 140 grain target points, so the FOC is at the max, for whatever spine rating I have her shooting at.

More pounds on the fingers for a RECURVE shooter, the bow is more forgiving of form errors, so it's actually EASIER to control group size, as the pounds on the fingers increases.

LESS pounds on the fingers for a RECURVE shooter (due to stamina issues),
the bow is LESS forgiving of form errors, so the fliers end up flying FARTHER from the x-ring at distance. So, the LOWER pounds on the fingers, are more difficult to control, to get tighter groups. Scores will be lower, for low poundage recurve setups. We are limited by stamina for younger recurve shooters.
 

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Desert Island Trading Co.
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Not sure i understand if your comment is dismissive or not, it's so short with no elaboration. Perhaps i miss your point.
You are welcome to put emphasis on arrow speed all you want.

But decades of experience and knowledge from the four you quoted all saying the same thing.

i will also add in all the years competing...learning, talking with other archers at all levels of skill, not once did i have a conversation on the speed of my bow or speed of their bow/arrow or any conversation about arrow speed at all.

And i can assure you, I've had thousands of conversations about bows, gear, shooting, and form. Archers at tournaments love to talk to each other, it's a family reunion. And many I spoke with were at levels i could never attain.

YMMV

Chris
 

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Can't keep em straight
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3,837 Posts
Not sure i understand if your comment is dismissive or not, it's so short with no elaboration. Perhaps i miss your point.
You are welcome to put emphasis on arrow speed all you want.

But decades of experience and knowledge from the four you quoted all saying the same thing.

i will also add in all the years competing...learning, talking with other archers at all levels of skill, not once did i have a conversation on the speed of my bow or speed of their bow/arrow or any conversation about arrow speed at all.

And i can assure you, I've had thousands of conversations about bows, gear, shooting, and form. Archers at tournaments love to talk to each other, it's a family reunion. And many I spoke with were at levels i could never attain.

YMMV

Chris
It's not being dismissive.
My point was that Stash (who, don't get me wrong, I do respect), was saying, that no one was saying, that speed is irrelevant.
But they did say that, repeatedly. Topic's full of it, and it's quoted.
It's not.
Especially when one wants to drag in momentum, for better or worse.
Look at the average men vs women's scores and look at the average draw weights.

Many people, quoted accordingly, DID in their own words say speed is irrelevant. And that's a contradiction.
I'm not pointing that out to be petty, I'm pointing it out because I think that argument needs to be worded a lot more carefully than that.

AT often goes "Well yeah, I said that but duh, obviously it's not what I literally meant to say!"
Ok. Then don't do that. Please please don't. Because newbies have access to the experts on here, and that's awesome squared, but they are taking the experts very literally.

I don't doubt for a second that the subject never came up between you and your pupils, because your average pupil was probably already getting enough speed (yup, speed) out of their setup to get the job done.
Now if they weren't... if that were an obstacle to them hitting the center ring with the arrow... you'd be bringing up ways to increase... what?
 

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Genesis 21:20
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Because they randomly and rapidly shift back and forth and you often can’t tell if you should be aiming a bit left or a bit right on any given shot.
Precisely.
 

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Genesis 21:20
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however, the mental side does not allow those who are weak minded to believe they can do well unless they use what everyone else is using.
pure gold there.
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Heavier draw weight = cleaner release plus the ability to shoot a heavier arrow, therefore more momentum. Also, very light bow with very heavy arrow = unable to get sight on target at 70m.
I don’t think I have met many top archers who thought much about arrow speed.
I think the fastest i ever shot was 205 fps.
The better the tune the less drift but also the better the form consistency, the less drift.
Thank you all for your constructive feedback (except for limbwalker), I never expected so many people to pipe in with good stuff. Especially Rick McKinney, seems like there's a nugget of gold in every post of yours I read.

Now that the speed issue has been sorted out, can anyone talk about the arrow weight part of my post? Haven't seen much on that. I'm curious what arrow weight is considered a "minimum" to be able to effectively combat cross wind drift at 50-70 meters.
 

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Lowered expectations
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Arrowbender, the confusion in this discussion seems to be in the distinction between “relevant” and “important”. I looked through all the posts previous to your #20 and didn’t see the words “relevant” or “irrelevant”, hence I stand behind my “nobody said speed is irrelevant”. I do not consider the two terms to be interchangeable.

In any event, yes, of course arrow speed is both relevant and important in archery. You’re not going to get far in archery with an arrow travelling zero fps.

However, the discussion is about the importance of marginal additional speed compared to other issues, primarily higher momentum and good tuning, which I think most knowledgeable Olympic archers prioritize over a few extra feet per second of speed.
 

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Lowered expectations
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Now that the speed issue has been sorted out, can anyone talk about the arrow weight part of my post? Haven't seen much on that. I'm curious what arrow weight is considered a "minimum" to be able to effectively combat cross wind drift at 50-70 meters.
I don’t think it’s possible to quantify that.

Everyone has a different arrow spine and length requirement, and different tuning variables. Once that's established through trial and error, the main decision comes down to selecting an arrow from among the thinnest and heaviest models that are available on the market.

I have no recollection of hearing any Olympic archer say anything like “I need a 425 grain arrow”. Bowhunters, well, every third post. 🙄
 

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I guarantee you, arrow speed is one of the least important considerations for a top Olympic division shooter. If it were, they’d all be shooting ACEs instead of X10s.

The flight time difference at 70 meters between a fast arrow and a slower one might be on the order of a tenth of a second, and the arrow isn't going to move much more sideways in that short a time, even in a crosswind. A dense, thin arrow will be less affected by wind than a wider, lighter one over the whole 70 meter flight.

Increased arrow speed only has significant value in unmarked distance shooting.
It's not so much that speed doesn't make a difference in counteracting the wind - it does, and a very large difference at that as you pilots in the thread already know - it's that there are more than one ways to skin that particular cat.
Meaning, if you're already at the limits of speed - you can't increase it anymore without other major ill effects - that doesn't mean you're SOL. You can compromise on other aspects of the shaft that can also reduce the effects of the (relative) wind. You can increase the weight, or reduce aerodynamic profile, or both.

There was a thread on this topic up in the general forum a little while ago about this same topic.....

lee.
 

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the better FOC arrow is less affected by the wind.
Speed is not important at all in Olympic recurve archery. Compound archers seem obsessed with speed, possibly from hype by compound bow manufacturers.

Speed has nothing to do with Olympic recurve archery results in wind or without wind.
Not true. Like I mentioned earlier, this is one of the first things pilots learn in ground school when they're first learning to fly. It's vital to being able to get to your destination and back safely and without running out of gas :). But it's not intuitive and not usually something known widely by the general public.

The basic idea is as follows: the shorter the flight time of the projectile/arrow/aircraft from start to finish, the less time the effects of the wind have to affect its ground track. So, the faster you can make it go, the shorter the flight time. Which in turn means the less correction you have to apply in the track through the airmass to insure the correct track over the ground (meaning, arrival at the correct destination).
And correspondingly for longer flight times.

A lot of flights have prematurely ended in fields with empty gas tanks by early pilots who didn't understand this in their flight plans when accounting for the winds to their destinations and back. :)

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

So unfortunately, the compounders turn out to be right. They don't necessarily know why they're right, but the description above is why.

That's not the whole story on compensating for wind, though, so in practice there are other ways to compensate for slow arrows so that the effect ends up negligible in practice.

But it certainly does make a difference...

lee.
 

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Lowered expectations
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Go outside on a windy day. Find a wall that is parallel to the wind direction. Mark an X on the wall at eye level.

Now step back about 5 yards.

Take a ping ping ball and throw it as hard as you can at the X. See how far the wind moves it.
Then take a ball bearing and toss it gently at the X. See how far the wind moves it.

Then tell me what’s going to be more accurate in the wind - a slow, heavy, small projectile, or a fast, light, large one.

Yes, the difference between a ping pong ball and a marble is much greater than an ACE and an X10, but the example illustrates the situation.
 

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Can't keep em straight
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Arrowbender, the confusion in this discussion seems to be in the distinction between “relevant” and “important”. I looked through all the posts previous to your #20 and didn’t see the words “relevant” or “irrelevant”, hence I stand behind my “nobody said speed is irrelevant”. I do not consider the two terms to be interchangeable.

In any event, yes, of course arrow speed is both relevant and important in archery. You’re not going to get far in archery with an arrow travelling zero fps.

However, the discussion is about the importance of marginal additional speed compared to other issues, primarily higher momentum and good tuning, which I think most knowledgeable Olympic archers prioritize over a few extra feet per second of speed.
Argh, "Marginal additional speed" gets you additional momentum, because that is how momentum works, not according to me, not according to some internet back and forth, but according to physics.
Saying additional speed is irrelevant compared to additional momentum makes no sense. One results in the other. Similarly, a good tune is important because it results in... yeah, exactly.
Cleaner flight, thus launching the SAME weight with less energy wasted, faster, resulting in more momentum.

The quotes are right there, I did not change them, and I think playing semantics games to say, afterwards, "well I didn't mean what I said because I didn't use the exact literal same word" is playing word games to escape prior statements.

Now it's:
"In any event, yes, of course arrow speed is both relevant and important in archery."

Well, ok. We agree that speed is both relevant and important in archery.
Despite what seems like everyone previously stating the opposite, my bad, not my first language and all that.

You're obviously right that it's never going to be the one single determining factor in any competition. But it's obviously not irrelevant by any means, because... as we can see here... it's a requirement, in some ways. And it adds to momentum. Which is good. Including in cross winds.
 

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Can't keep em straight
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Yes, the difference between a ping pong ball and a marble is much greater than an ACE and an X10, but the example illustrates the situation.
No, by using a grossly exaggerated example you've fallen into the same logical error the general archery and bowhunting sections always do when they're (endlessly) debating this through irrelevant examples, and it just confuses things more.

I'll throw a bowling ball now using the same force I used for the ping pong ball and the marble previously.
Oh dear.
It fell on my toe. Ouch.
Let me try a banana next.
This is silly.
 

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Wind drift is determined by both velocity and ballistic coefficient. Ballistic coefficient is a relationship of a projectile’s aerodynamic shape and it’s mass. Using the same input energy, two projectiles with similar aerodynamic shapes but different mass and therefore velocity(and ballistic coefficient) will exhibit relatively small differences in down range ballistics with the lighter and faster projectile shooting a bit “flatter” and the heavier projectile showing slightly less wind drift.


Balance, or FOC, has no direct bearing on ballistic coefficient of any arrow. In rifle bullets, the most aerodynamic bullets with the best downrange ballistics are all balanced toward the rear due their their absence of lead in the nose. Having a fast enough twist rate to fully stabilize the bullet and get rid of any wobble is essential to getting the best downrange ballistics possible, though. If FOC makes any difference in the ballistic coefficient of an arrow, it is only as a reflection on its how quickly the arrow flies straight and how absolutely straight it flies.
 
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