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7 plus inch Brace Height? what other factors are considered, How much does the cam system of the bow have to do with it? or play into it? or does the cam system have nothing to do with it? What bows of the last 5 years can be considered forgiving and why are they?
 

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Forgiveness is a funny term and many don't get it. It's simply referring to how easy it is to shoot a bow well.

Higher brace heights, longer ata lengths and such are the main things. Another would be less cam lean (ata and bh play into this as well). Or riser geometry (not that it helps reduce the effects of torque, but a deflexed riser does settle quicker at full draw). Cams.....don't go with huge, leaning cams as they induce lateral nock travel, but this is, once again, related to ata and bh, since longer bows with larger brace heights have smaller cams.
 

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Shooter of flesh
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To me...it's longer ATA.
 

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People are going to rattle of ATA, BH, soft cams, etc......

I'm going to say that those almost only apply on a individual basis based on fit and unique technique/tendencies and capability.

For me, I don't care about BH. I don't particularly care about ATA until it gets under about 32". I don't mind a hard cam. I shoot some of today's "agressive" bows better than the 47" Vantage Elite's that were said to be the ultimate in forgiveness. I've owned bows from 32.5-41" ATA and from 6-8" BH that were all awesome shooters.

For me, cam lean and torque management is key to forgiveness in today's designs.
 

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One other thing....and a big one. The change in dynamic brace height. When a bow with upright angled limbs is drawn the limb tips move towards the shooter and it's effective brace height increases, which doesn't happen with current beyond parallel limbed bows. I've found that a 7 5/8" brace height upright limbed bow (ProElite) is still more forgiving that a parallel limbed bow with 8 3/4" of brace (the one in my avatar), even though they both have the same limbs and cams.
 

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Live with passion
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In addition to what is posted. . . . . . . .speed. The quicker the arrow gets off the string the more forgiving.
 

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Shooter of flesh
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People are going to rattle of ATA, BH, soft cams, etc......

I'm going to say that those almost only apply on a individual basis based on fit and unique technique/tendencies and capability.

For me, I don't care about BH. I don't particularly care about ATA until it gets under about 32". I don't mind a hard cam. I shoot some of today's "agressive" bows better than the 47" Vantage Elite's that were said to be the ultimate in forgiveness. I've owned bows from 32.5-41" ATA and from 6-8" BH that were all awesome shooters.

For me, cam lean and torque management is key to forgiveness in today's designs.
Then you go and talk about what's best for you???
 

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riser length helps out with forgiveness i would say.
 

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Then you go and talk about what's best for you???
Yeah, I fail to see the problem with that. I stated that I felt forgiveness was a unique set of characteristics based on the individuals needs and named off some of what mine are.

Problem?
 

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Yeah, I fail to see the problem with that. I stated that I felt forgiveness was a unique set of characteristics based on the individuals needs and named off some of what mine are.

Problem?
No real problem. I just think that we should stick to quantifiable specifics, not subjective feel. Regardless who you are a longer upright limbed bow with a large brace is still more forgiving than a short parallel limbed bow with a smaller brace. Doesn't really matter who you are. Fit just dictates the limits and where diminishing returns set in.
 

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No real problem. I just think that we should stick to quantifiable specifics, not subjective feel. Regardless who you are a longer upright limbed bow with a large brace is still more forgiving than a short parallel limbed bow with a smaller brace. Doesn't really matter who you are. Fit just dictates the limits and where diminishing returns set in.
We generally seem to have a similar viewpoint on things but I think my point is that we disagree here. I don't view forgiveness as a quantifiable fact based on the conventional knowledge of long BH, long ATA.....and maybe upright limbs (although I do agree with your statement on beyond parallel limb bows).

I view forgiveness as unique to the bow and shooter......paired with the tune. How else do you explain that certain people have bows that don't fit the description of "forgiving" that they simply shoot better than others?

I think the conventional wisdom is painting with a broad brush. It covers a lot of territory but it isn't right for everything/everyone.
 

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I view forgiveness as unique to the bow and shooter......paired with the tune. How else do you explain that certain people have bows that don't fit the description of "forgiving" that they simply shoot better than others?
Simple, none of them have had a more conventional forving bow set up properly for them.

Resistance to torque and shooter imperfections is entirely measurable. There is no need for subjective terms. The cam lean you mentioned, for example, is avoidable altogether by simply going to a more upright limb angle, higher brace and longer length. That's because those things reduce or eliminate cam lean. Deflexed risers place nearly all the bow's mass on one side of the vertical rotation axis (the grip), which will reduce a bow's tendency to move at the moment the shot breaks just like a B-stinger stabilizer does.

Things like these are quantifiable and measurable and have nothing to do with the individual shooting the bow.
 

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Socket Man
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Forgiving is a bows ability to hide your human input, just like speed and dead in hand all bows are improving as the years go by. I beat guys with my destroyer 350 all the time that are shooting target rigs and that is because my destroyer is one of the new generation speed bows that is forgiving and smooth and fast and dead in hand. If you want to win at the national level you probably need a good target rig so pick one but for hunting and local shoots any of the offerings out there will be forgiving enough.
 

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Simple, none of them have had a more conventional forving bow set up properly for them.

Resistance to torque and shooter imperfections is entirely measurable. There is no need for subjective terms. The cam lean you mentioned, for example, is avoidable altogether by simply going to a more upright limb angle, higher brace and longer length. That's because those things reduce or eliminate cam lean. Deflexed risers place nearly all the bow's mass on one side of the vertical rotation axis (the grip), which will reduce a bow's tendency to move at the moment the shot breaks just like a B-stinger stabilizer does.

Things like these are quantifiable and measurable and have nothing to do with the individual shooting the bow.
Once again, I think we generally agree especially on the design geometry creating cam lean and torque so that it has to be managed. I also agree on the deflexed riser statement except that I view it as more of a "prefered balance/reaction" issue than I do a set-in-stone forgiveness issue since identical BH can be achieved on a reflexed riser with longer or more parallel limbs and accomplish the same geometry otherwise (assuming you manage the other issues you create in the process). All of those factors that you name are part of that same "broad brush".....common denominators of what generally makes a bow forgiving. But by naming the stabilizer, I think you also aknowledge the importance of the setup on any given bow.

To me, the individual behind the bow is the unique characteristic that breaks the rules of "forgiveness". All of those common denominators above pair (or don't pair) with the shooter to make a bow that HE/SHE shoots well or doesn't.

***personal preference note. I look at my Specialists everyday and even though I love them wonder why BT built them so reflexed. It was unnecessary to produce that geometry. A straighter or deflexed riser could've been used and had a bow that was easier to stabilize.
 

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***personal preference note. I look at my Specialists everyday and even though I love them wonder why BT built them so reflexed. It was unnecessary to produce that geometry. A straighter or deflexed riser could've been used and had a bow that was easier to stabilize.
It's because they used off the shelf parts from their hunting bows, like the D350. With the limb angle the Speicialists have it was either shorter limbs or a deflexed riser. Heck, I would have just given it a neutal riser and increased the BH, but then they'd have a slower bow and the "normal" BT shooter probably wouldn't have considered it.
 

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Something that hasn't been metioned that goes into the equation is setting up a bow correctly. As well as picking the correct arrows, rest, stab, etc. I've had bows that with one arrow seemed very picky of form and with another seemed to shoot better and be more forgiving. I think this has to do greatly with proper spine
 

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Great answer's everyone, so now can you explain it so a caveman can understand it? LOL:wink:
Sure I can explain. No bow has the capacity to be forgiving. It is just a mechanical device. But some bows are easier to shoot more consistently than others. But as you have read it is more than just the bow. It also has to do with your personal form and release and the arrows that you choose. So, I guess the bottom line is, that in general, longer ATA and larger brace height bows seem to be the easiest to shoot in a consistent manner for most. Or, so that a caveman can understand, there is no such thing as a forgiving bow. It is just a term that we made up to describe bows that tend not to accentuate our flaws as much. Why not work on your shooting flaws instead of looking for a bow that will graciously forgive them?

Doug
 
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