What's better, single or double cam ?
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It's a personal preference thing. I prefer dual cams but the single cam guys like their bows better.....the only advantage I've seen of a single cam is when they go out of time it's not as big of a deal....you lose a touch of speed but it's not nearly as much of an issue as a 2 cam bow out of time
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Less to worry about with a single cam in terms of timing issues. Although, the long string (single cam) can present more of a "stretch" issue. One thing about the 2 cam setups is they are more forgiving in terms of nock point. Although timing can be more of an issue with them, dual cam setups maintain "more level" nock travel. The one down side (for hunting) is the draw cycle. It has been my experience that most 2 cam bows draw more "stiffly" than a good single cam setup. That reminds me..... On a single cam, you have one cam doing all the work. Because of this, you may notice more cable/string wear near/on the cam.
For hunting, I've always leaned towards single cam bows. (But my most recent one was a dual cam setup and it shoots fantastic.)
For hunting, I've always leaned towards single cam bows. (But my most recent one was a dual cam setup and it shoots fantastic.)
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I won't go into the real technical stuff...save that for the tuner & a few select others, but just think about it. I cam vs 2. Obviously more speed w 2, but easier set up w one. I love my single cam Vipro Slayer (flat butter), but nitrous cams are silly fast & when you set up the X system (shoot through), you have cams that have ZERO lean-simply is not a more accurate bow when properly set up. CATs-super fast, but the module & draw stop must be set properly or you will end up w a bow that has 80% let off-not my thing (same for all of the 3 track the binaries made including the Nitros).
If you want a bow you don't need tonspend as much timetuning -single (you will need to tune, but not the process you go through w a 2 cammed bow). If you want speed & have time to.learn the details of properly tuning...two cams all day every day (NOS are flat awesome).
If you want a bow you don't need tonspend as much timetuning -single (you will need to tune, but not the process you go through w a 2 cammed bow). If you want speed & have time to.learn the details of properly tuning...two cams all day every day (NOS are flat awesome).
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Most of the time Jamie and I are on the same page but on this one I have to disagree a bit. And, for the record a local shop tuner and string builder I trust hates single cam bows and they are a M dealer......
There was a time when Jamie was dead right but those times are past. The string materials of today and the techniques we string builders employ allow a headache free bow even with dual cams. Dual cams are also easier to set up because as a rule they have a flat nock travel. If you are shooting a drop away with a single cam be very careful because many of the single cam bows push the arrow down as it pushes it forward.
Jamie is absolutely correct about the speed though. The fastest bows that are still fun to shoot will always be dual cams. Can a single get some speed going, sure but at the cost of something. That single cam now has to pull in all the string of the two cams on the other system. On a single cam that top wheel is only there to keep the string out at the limb tip.
The new cam systems allow a person to have the best of both worlds. My Alien shoots like a dual cam but the cams are synced together, I have a draw stop to tune the feel at full draw and i can still shift the timing if I choose to.
Not too long ago I owned one of the most raved about single cam bows available and it was still no match for the dual cams on my Alien X.
There was a time when Jamie was dead right but those times are past. The string materials of today and the techniques we string builders employ allow a headache free bow even with dual cams. Dual cams are also easier to set up because as a rule they have a flat nock travel. If you are shooting a drop away with a single cam be very careful because many of the single cam bows push the arrow down as it pushes it forward.
Jamie is absolutely correct about the speed though. The fastest bows that are still fun to shoot will always be dual cams. Can a single get some speed going, sure but at the cost of something. That single cam now has to pull in all the string of the two cams on the other system. On a single cam that top wheel is only there to keep the string out at the limb tip.
The new cam systems allow a person to have the best of both worlds. My Alien shoots like a dual cam but the cams are synced together, I have a draw stop to tune the feel at full draw and i can still shift the timing if I choose to.
Not too long ago I owned one of the most raved about single cam bows available and it was still no match for the dual cams on my Alien X.
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Paul, I don't think I was very clear. Single cam bows, for someone with zero experience & who has good quality strings which ate received w the appropriate twists per inch ratio are easier to set up provided...the individual puts the strings on properly & the cam is in a solid starting position. Many novice shooters can actually get away w this type of rig, with very little or no extra work (my best friend has the same strings on a 2001 bow & still double lungs them at 30).
I like two cams & they are superior in every way, but my single cam takes very little time to set up & shoot. Cam lean isn't the issue...idler lean is the killer. Bent rod single cam is fun to shoot.
Two cams are easy, but cutting your teeth on 1 cam teaches you a heck of a lot. I am a tinkerer & a hunter = bad combo. So, many times I end up w my single cam in the stand bc it is the only bow I flat don't touch. I have a tendency to.over tune or get bored, so I play w all of the bows w binaries or true duel cams 12 months a year.
I firmly believe that you should shoot what you feel comfortable with. If you are a hunter who.shoots 3d once in a blue moon, crushing 30 Xs is not what you do. Hitting a soccer ball sized target @ 20-35 consistently is your goal (no pun intended). Truly love both bc they are so different. Paul & I may disagree, but he is a guy who can shoot 30 Xs & I'm a guy who can shoot 30 soccer balls. This is why I didn't want to get technical....for me - single cam bows are easy to get right- perhaps bc I have shot them for the last 25 year's & they have produced.....
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I like two cams & they are superior in every way, but my single cam takes very little time to set up & shoot. Cam lean isn't the issue...idler lean is the killer. Bent rod single cam is fun to shoot.
Two cams are easy, but cutting your teeth on 1 cam teaches you a heck of a lot. I am a tinkerer & a hunter = bad combo. So, many times I end up w my single cam in the stand bc it is the only bow I flat don't touch. I have a tendency to.over tune or get bored, so I play w all of the bows w binaries or true duel cams 12 months a year.
I firmly believe that you should shoot what you feel comfortable with. If you are a hunter who.shoots 3d once in a blue moon, crushing 30 Xs is not what you do. Hitting a soccer ball sized target @ 20-35 consistently is your goal (no pun intended). Truly love both bc they are so different. Paul & I may disagree, but he is a guy who can shoot 30 Xs & I'm a guy who can shoot 30 soccer balls. This is why I didn't want to get technical....for me - single cam bows are easy to get right- perhaps bc I have shot them for the last 25 year's & they have produced.....
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This is an interesting discussion. I wish I had something to add. Unfortunately you aren't going to get any real facts from me. I can only offer the simplicity I have experienced with a single cam. I don't shoot for speed though. I prefer accuracy and kinetic energy.
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Note on speed and performance..... I was told you most certainly can achieve the same speeds with just one cam. (But that to do so puts more strain on the cables.) The odd thing about single versus double cam bows is the draw cycles. I have yet to find a 2 cam bow that draws quite as softly as a good single cam bow. ~ Even if both bows are rated the same IBO, for some reason the one with a wheel always seems easier to draw.....
Now if only I understood why.
Now if only I understood why.
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Now I realize Jamie and I are on the same page. You make my chuckle Bud because you remind me of a very good guy I have lost contact with who was the same way. He would get so frustrated with is shooting and then come to find out his bow was never set up the same way for more than a week at a time....LOL, LOL I still remember when he got his first target sight and insisted he needed a 6X lens.... but that is another story. If we are looking at a bow that will not be tuned well when it needs it and will come out of the closet 2 weeks before the season a single is perfect.
If a person shoots on a regular basis and is willing to invest in good strings a dual cam is the way to go. A good buddy of mine won out state 3-D championship one year with a single but now he shoots duals.
Jamie, get you but up here and we will have you stacking arrows from 40 in a couple of hours. Oh, and that is a nice Deer.
As for draw cycle think of it this way. On a single cam the wheel is helping you full against only 1 cam. You have just one cam to over come and you have help. With a dual cam or hybrid you are rolling over both cams on your own. That being said, even if the IBO numbers were the same I doubt the single that was that easy to draw was getting the same speed as the dual. It is a simple matter of physics. The other thing to keep in mind is brace height, a lower brace height will feel more harsh on the draw cycle.
The Ross I had does indeed have a very nice draw cycle but it is a dog compare to my Alien and my Alien is currently shooting a much heavier arrow at the same draw weight. The Ross was at 65lbs and giving me 278, the Alien at 62lbs was at 302 with the same arrow. That is not a small change, that is HUGE !!! Now I can shoot a much heavier arrow and still get decent speed without drawing massive amounts of lbs.
I am not saying single cams are bad but you need to decide what your ultimate goals are. If you want to be a back yard shooter from time to time and hunt a little a single is perfect. If you really love archery go with a dual or hybrid.
Consider this, Mr. Solo Cam had to eat his words and now produces dual cam bows.
If a person shoots on a regular basis and is willing to invest in good strings a dual cam is the way to go. A good buddy of mine won out state 3-D championship one year with a single but now he shoots duals.
Jamie, get you but up here and we will have you stacking arrows from 40 in a couple of hours. Oh, and that is a nice Deer.
As for draw cycle think of it this way. On a single cam the wheel is helping you full against only 1 cam. You have just one cam to over come and you have help. With a dual cam or hybrid you are rolling over both cams on your own. That being said, even if the IBO numbers were the same I doubt the single that was that easy to draw was getting the same speed as the dual. It is a simple matter of physics. The other thing to keep in mind is brace height, a lower brace height will feel more harsh on the draw cycle.
The Ross I had does indeed have a very nice draw cycle but it is a dog compare to my Alien and my Alien is currently shooting a much heavier arrow at the same draw weight. The Ross was at 65lbs and giving me 278, the Alien at 62lbs was at 302 with the same arrow. That is not a small change, that is HUGE !!! Now I can shoot a much heavier arrow and still get decent speed without drawing massive amounts of lbs.
I am not saying single cams are bad but you need to decide what your ultimate goals are. If you want to be a back yard shooter from time to time and hunt a little a single is perfect. If you really love archery go with a dual or hybrid.
Consider this, Mr. Solo Cam had to eat his words and now produces dual cam bows.
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Mr. Solo Cam preached "Solo Cam" for years and years because he owned the patent. And apparently (so I'm told) he was paid a royalty for each bow produced, regardless of brand. Heck, unless I'm mistaken he "kind of" had all the other brands selling "his product!" ~ I think we all would have done pretty much the same thing! :grin:
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Nail on the head. The gentleman who stated a single cam could be a fast as a duel/hybrid/binary canned bow needs to think of it in very simple terms... Imagine you rig up a pulley system to lift a 300 pound piece of furniture. Physics is not my area of expertise, but I guarantee you a 2 pulley system is more efficient & more powerful.
Tiller tuning was something I had to learn shooting one cam bc, obviously, one limb is under more stress than the other.
A 2 cammed bow when properly synched & timed, is superior to a pow with a single cam. I will say my Slayer w/ a single Vipro cam is so pleasing to shoot, but it cannot perform as well as my Nemesis (soon to become a shoot through w Nitrous B cams) or my other Slayer with CAT cams....it is impossible for the silky smooth Vipro to touch either cam system.
Which system is better? The numbers point to a clear winner, but not so fast. The best is a matter of personal preference & what you do with the bow. I realize many a Pro tournament has been won w single cams, but those folks could dot an i at 40 yards w my bear whitetail II (yeas, it is a horrible bow & they would crush most of us w it).
I say both are great & as long as you have fun, who really cares which is better?
Tiller tuning was something I had to learn shooting one cam bc, obviously, one limb is under more stress than the other.
A 2 cammed bow when properly synched & timed, is superior to a pow with a single cam. I will say my Slayer w/ a single Vipro cam is so pleasing to shoot, but it cannot perform as well as my Nemesis (soon to become a shoot through w Nitrous B cams) or my other Slayer with CAT cams....it is impossible for the silky smooth Vipro to touch either cam system.
Which system is better? The numbers point to a clear winner, but not so fast. The best is a matter of personal preference & what you do with the bow. I realize many a Pro tournament has been won w single cams, but those folks could dot an i at 40 yards w my bear whitetail II (yeas, it is a horrible bow & they would crush most of us w it).
I say both are great & as long as you have fun, who really cares which is better?
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I suspect it is marginally "more efficient." However.....
I think the performance (single cam bow) is achieved by making that single cam eccentrics "twice as aggressive." (one cam doing the work of two) In that sense, it's quite easy to achieve comparable performance. But the problem that results from doing this is excessive wear on the lines. If you look at a 340 ibo single cam bow (they do exist, and I have one) after shooting it for 1000 shots or so..... It does become apparent that there is a lot of stress on the cables/strings (concentrated in certain spots where they roll over the single cam.) ~ You can see the "stretch" in the wrap/serving materials. FYI: This is not the factory string either. After two years of shooting, I had it replaced with a custom made one.
Now to be honest, I have two bows I'm presently shooting. I can't tell you which one shoots a faster arrow, as I don't have a chrono But they're close and I'm shooting the same arrows. My single cam Carnage ("over-rated" at 345 ibo) and the Chill-R (rated at 342 ibo.) Having shot the Chill-R for a few months, I went back and began shooting the Carnage. The one thing I noticed immediately is the difference in the draw cycle. Because of this, in real COLD weather, I think I'll be taking the single cam. (late season)
Also, I shoot "single pin." The one thing I can tell you regarding speed is I don't see any difference in arrow trajectory between these two bows. (Not out to ~30 anyways.) Beyond that distance, I haven't yet taken the time to do a comparison. ~ Different sights on the two different bows result in different "hold-over" to get the 40 yard shot. (One bow has a dovetail which extends the pin further out from the riser which "changes things" in terms of where to hold the pin.)
Having shot my new Chill-R several thousand shots, drawing it back at 72# seems quite "easy." Having said that (and also having just picked up my Carnage again)..... If I had a shoulder injury, there would be no questions in my mind which bow I would be trying to shoot.... Single cam Carnage feels like "butter."
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the main difference now it usually single cam has a smoother draw cycle and as far as speed its not a huge difference
also with single cam bows you dont need to worry about timing as much
keep in mind this comming from someone who shoots a double cam bow
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That timing problem has been solved with binary cams.
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One other "tidbit" relative to ease of setup on bows. (taken from Nuts & Bolts as I recall.).....
Proper vertical nock alignment is much more critical on a single cam bow. In this sense, it's easier to setup a 2 cam bow.
Come to think of it, a couple of other things regarding what bow is easier to setup and tune....
Cam timing windows on the Chill-R make it a "no brainer" to instantly visually see that everything is "OK" in the timing department.
And here's something else (I'm sure a few of you will not agree with in terms of "simplicity."): Yoke design.
One of the reasons I really like the design of the Chill-R (this is an "acquired" taste) is that it has "yoke rings" suspended by a floating yoke.
Because of this, obviously "yoke tuning" is impossible. However, it also eliminates the need to ever worry about pressing a bow to add/remove twists etc.
I'm pretty sure that all single cam bows have a yoke which must be tuned/set properly to counteract/manage lean. (And this is just one more thing that needs to be set properly.) I have to admit that I was leery of the floating yoke design. (And I'm not a Mathews fan to begin with. ~ I also remember when Hoyt moved from floating to fixed yokes. I had been thinking: "Darn, just another "adjustment think" which could necessitate a day trip back and forth to a bow dealer as I don't have a press.) But having realized that this bow (floating yoke, short b/h etc.) shoots "lights out" (I'm achieving some of the best 40 yard shooting I have ever experienced)..... I'm glad I don't have to worry about the yokes.
Proper vertical nock alignment is much more critical on a single cam bow. In this sense, it's easier to setup a 2 cam bow.
Come to think of it, a couple of other things regarding what bow is easier to setup and tune....
Cam timing windows on the Chill-R make it a "no brainer" to instantly visually see that everything is "OK" in the timing department.
And here's something else (I'm sure a few of you will not agree with in terms of "simplicity."): Yoke design.
One of the reasons I really like the design of the Chill-R (this is an "acquired" taste) is that it has "yoke rings" suspended by a floating yoke.
Because of this, obviously "yoke tuning" is impossible. However, it also eliminates the need to ever worry about pressing a bow to add/remove twists etc.
I'm pretty sure that all single cam bows have a yoke which must be tuned/set properly to counteract/manage lean. (And this is just one more thing that needs to be set properly.) I have to admit that I was leery of the floating yoke design. (And I'm not a Mathews fan to begin with. ~ I also remember when Hoyt moved from floating to fixed yokes. I had been thinking: "Darn, just another "adjustment think" which could necessitate a day trip back and forth to a bow dealer as I don't have a press.) But having realized that this bow (floating yoke, short b/h etc.) shoots "lights out" (I'm achieving some of the best 40 yard shooting I have ever experienced)..... I'm glad I don't have to worry about the yokes.
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Back to the strings..... (some of this is speculation, I'm not a dealer)
Because of the cam geometries and lengths involved (much longer string on a single cam bow), I suspect a single cam bow will spend more time in a press adding twists to compensate for "stretch." I also would guess that they have a "much harder life" given the added wear and tear. (of one cam doing all the "heavy lifting") Note: I have well over 1000 shots in my Chill-R, and I don't think the cables/strings have stretched one bit. (not noticeable in draw length, or in the cam timing "windows") The only place where I can visually see wear is the nock point. No serving "stretch marks" either..... LOL
A year ago, I would have highly suggested going with a single cam bow for simplicity and maintenance sake. But today my thoughts are: UNLESS you have a shoulder issue/injury..... Pick the bow based on the draw cycle and how she feels and shoots. Don't worry so much about the eccentrics, just don't get "over-bowed."
Because of the cam geometries and lengths involved (much longer string on a single cam bow), I suspect a single cam bow will spend more time in a press adding twists to compensate for "stretch." I also would guess that they have a "much harder life" given the added wear and tear. (of one cam doing all the "heavy lifting") Note: I have well over 1000 shots in my Chill-R, and I don't think the cables/strings have stretched one bit. (not noticeable in draw length, or in the cam timing "windows") The only place where I can visually see wear is the nock point. No serving "stretch marks" either..... LOL
A year ago, I would have highly suggested going with a single cam bow for simplicity and maintenance sake. But today my thoughts are: UNLESS you have a shoulder issue/injury..... Pick the bow based on the draw cycle and how she feels and shoots. Don't worry so much about the eccentrics, just don't get "over-bowed."
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Can't comment on the FireCat. I was "turned off" of Martin completely when I began reading about their "3 piece risers" years ago. They may have worked fine, but I didn't like the concept. (I'm not saying th FireCat is 3-piece, I can't recall.) ~ I stopped following the Martin lineup, but used to "keep a watch" on their premium Rytera line brand, until it merged back into Martin.
I find it almost disappointing having owned and taken so many deer with a singe cam bow, but it doesn't seem like there are too many of them left in production which get "raved about" anymore. Bear had a few years back. Mathews still has one. (Creed)..... I previously owned a z7. (longs story, but it was kind of a "gift") Anyways, I couldn't shoot that bow for crap. Took two deer and decided I had better not push my luck. (I do have to admit however that the z7 had the most linear and "silky smooth" draw cycle of any bow I have ever drawn back.) I also know a few people who shoot the Hili-M "lights out." (They really like that bow. I never tried it.)
What is your draw length anyways? I'm 27.5, yet I still seem to notice the benefits of a 32/33 inch ATA bow (with large diameter eccentrics) for hunting. From my experience, they're easier to shoot well & consistently. (string angle is better and the bows "hold" more stable, especially without a stab)
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