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Waterstone79

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Just read the artical in field and stream talking with Levi Morgan
And in the artical he states that having the sight farther out from the riser
makes no difference at all in accuracy.

Here is the quote

“I install my sight as close as possible to the riser. A lot of people think that running the sight out farther helps accuracy, but it doesn’t. Everyone torques the bow, period, and running the sight close reduces the effect of torque on aiming.”

Now form what I have observed and seen is people wanting ther sights much farther out from the riser and a smaller peep in order to increase accuracy so what's the right answer?

Why would a spott Hogg hog father with a 6" bar be better than a let's say true glow sight with only a small 1-2" length then ? Is he right or do most of you think the way I do as a sight farther from the riser will make you focus better and be more accurate?
 
#2 ·
What is more accurate? 4-inch barrel pistol or a rifle with s 20-inch barrel? The pistol and the rifle both have iron sights. When you extend a Spot Hogg Hogg-It pin sight as far as you can away from your face...your pin gaps grow farther apart. Why would anybody want a wider pin gap between your 20 yd and 30 yd pins? Well...depends on how accurate you want to be. If you estimate the distance at 27 yards....have to ask yourself do you want your 20 and 30 yd pins stacked on top of each other...or do you want max separation between your 20 and 30 yd pins? If you shoot 8-inch groups at 20 yds and shoot 12-inch groups at 30 yds....sliding your Hogg-It pin sight closer or farther from your face will make no difference to you. But...if you want to see how accurate you can become...try adjusting your Spot Hogg Hogg-It pin sight up close to the riser and try sliding the dovetail at max extension. Find out what works best for YOU....cuz what works BEST FOR YOU...probably does NOT work best for REO...no good for LEVI...not so great for DAN...does not excite Cousin Dave...does not impress Dietmar....and on and on for the entire list of pro shooters.
 
#3 ·
I read that article awhile back and was surprised to hear that as well. It does make sense though because the farther you put your sight from the bow, the farther it will move if you torque the bow. I think that's somewhat offset though by the increase in sight radius increasing accuracy. It's tough to argue with Levi because the guy obviously knows what he's doing but you do see many other top level shooters running their sights way out there. I think Nuts and Bolts hit it on the head, figure out what works for you and run with it. I personally run mine all the way out there but primarily do that because that's where my sight gives me perfect alignment with my peep.
 
#4 ·
I found the pin further out was good for my ageing eyes. (less fuzzy) But a consequence of moving the sight out is: If you torque your bow (shooter error), the further out your pin/sight is extended.... Then the more it magnifies the torque when you compensate to align the pin on target. ~ Always trade-offs.
 
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#5 ·
The farther out your sight is from the bow the more and faster your pins move around on target. The closer your sight is to the bow the stiller your pins set on target. The farther out the sight is the bigger the pin gap the closer it is the smaller the gap is. The farther out the sight is the worse torque affects it the closer it is to the bow the less it affects it. So technically the farther distance between your peep sight and the sight pin (front sight/back sight) the more accurate it should be. But when you throw the human equation in there it can go either way depending on the person. It's just like putting a lense in a scope, could make you better but it could also make you worse.
 
#6 ·
573mms said:
The farther out your sight is from the bow the more and faster your pins move around on target. The closer your sight is to the bow the stiller your pins set on target. The farther out the sight is the bigger the pin gap the closer it is the smaller the gap is. The farther out the sight is the worse torque affects it the closer it is to the bow the less it affects it. So technically the farther distance between your peep sight and the sight pin (front sight/back sight) the more accurate it should be. But when you throw the human equation in there it can go either way depending on the person. It's just like putting a lense in a scope, could make you better but it could also make you worse.
Click to expand...
Yep... I found the dovetail allows me to shoot better in a controlled environment. (like practicing of the porch etc.) But when I'm shooting from contorted positions (like from my tree saddle / Guido's Web) it actually works against me a little.
 
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#8 ·
BrokenLimbs said:
Yep... I found the dovetail allows me to shoot better in a controlled environment. (like practicing of the porch etc.) But when I'm shooting from contorted positions (like from my tree saddle / Guido's Web) it actually works against me a little.
Click to expand...
If your not careful you can tell on a 3D course too. If you don't watch that bubble good standing on Unlevel ground or in akward positions the farther out you have the sight from the bow the worse the left and right misses will be.
 
#9 ·
Ok. Now that the relevant points are made -- then think about the rest of the story with regards to the effect of torque. How does how far your rest is extended from the bow pivot axis affect the arrow's POI when the bow is torqued slightly?

And is the offset in the same direction as the error induced by the sight's extension --- or is it in the opposite direction?

Again a little experimentation on what works for you can go a long way towards providing you the most forgiving set up that you could have.


If the only object is to reduce or eliminate error due to torque, then you put the pin (front reference) and the arrow rest both on the axis of rotation. But can you actually get to that point with conventional sights? And is that your only object?
 
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#10 ·
Like all things in archery equipment, the distance of the sight bar from the pivot point of the bow is a compromise. Another advantage in addition to those listed already of moving the sight further out is higher resolution in the elevation and windage settings. This can make your 2nd axis setting a little less critical if you don't happen to have it just absolutely spot on. And, if you're that good (which I'm not), and you find yourself bumping up against the backlash in your sight's adjustment mechanism, you can minimize its affects by moving the sight out a bit. That can force the settings to be coarse enough to overcome any slop in your sight's adjustment. And you don't have to go buy a better sight.

But of course, the drawbacks to moving it out have been alluded to as well. So like I said it's a compromise, but it doesn't have to be completely trial-and-error. If you know what length setting affects what, that can help guide what length adjustment suits what you need out of your sight.

I run my shibuyas about halfway out, but only for focus reasons (any closer and my dot blurs more than I like). All the way out is too wobbly for me and too far in I'd have to go with a clarifier/verifier in my peep which I'd like to avoid for now.

DM
 
#11 ·
Sights farther apart should give more accuracy but based on the everyone "torques" the bow theory it makes sense... but not everyone shoots the same so at what point does it go from being and asset to a hindrance ? I say shoot some at different settings and see at which setting you group the best.
 
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#12 ·
With micro adjustment pins distance means less vs lose slider pins.

Oppisite the torque. Torque pins \ hit over there / just like sighting in windage is oppisite pin location. Left pins right hits.

Copper john makes the txs? That corrects torque misses by placeing pins behind riser.

The accuracy many talk about i belive as above they can dial in that horizontal hit better and claim out is more accurate.

I think another thing not mentiond is close pins cover the 11 and 8 in some shots. No stress realizing if you goofed your 5 or out. Or whatever top and next are in your sport.
 
#13 ·
The analogy to a rifle or pistol sight is moot, you are only fixating on a single object, Your pin. Dovetail sight came about fo a need to be able to alighn the sight housing to the peep sight. On target sights with scopes it's necessary to be able to move the lens further out or in depending on your draw length. Most lenses are given a power at 35" from the eye. So if you have a 4x lens with a DL. Of say 28" the scope would need to be 7" from the rear of the riser. It's a trade off. Shorter sight extensions and rest with longer brackets to position the rest over the wrist can help with slight inconsistencies or break down in form from fatigue or anxiety.
 
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#14 ·
The reason for being able to move the front sight forward and back is to get proper framing in your peep sight. Depending on the size of your peep sight and the ambient light conditions the circle surrounding your sight or pin will be larger or smaller. This is why most target sights use a circle for the front sight, it is easier to "frame" in the peep sight and center. When you move into magnified front sights and clarifiers it becomes another ball of wax.
 
#15 ·
Having seen Levi several times I would guess that he has a much longer draw than my 26 inches. Therefore his sight plane will be much longer than mine. I have extended my target sight to seven inches which like a rifle as compared to a handgun will give you a better sight platform for target shooting. On the other hand my hunting bows are only extended 2-3 inches due to the different situations presented while hunting.
 
#19 ·
COArrow said:
I was always under the impression rifles were more accurate than pistols based on barrel length, not sight placement.
Click to expand...
I think you better read up. Sight radius matters.....
 
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#20 ·
Moving the front sight is part of Torque Tuning. So figure that in. Each set up making a difference.

Quote from Tim Gillingham's write of Torque Tuning;
"Problem:Two things happen when we torque the bow, we are moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite. The reason we get an impact change due to torque is that we are making compensations with the sight when we torque the bow and therefore the arrow is going to hit off line.
Solution: If we can put the arrow rest in the right position we can find the “sweet spot” where the two actions(moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite direction) cancel each other out. In laymans terms, this means I can set the rest and sight position to a point that no matter how I torque the bow left or right, as long as the sight is on target the arrow will hit in the middle where I am aiming."

See link. Fun though it was it was still work and quite a bit of time. Eventually I'll get around to moving the sight in and out to see how much it effects torque. Fun was watching the torqued shots getting closer and closer and then right on top of the qualifying arrow as I moved the arrow rest. See #3 - Grant doing the same from 40 yards (picture is turned).

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3702642

Yes, Levi has run his sight in close to the riser. He is still young and no doubt has good eye sight along with good physical condition. He is also said to use a .010" pin.
 

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