Tim, I don’t think that set up is holding your student back at all. I’m fairly ambivalent about most equipment choices. Hoyt limits your choice of limbs if you opt for Formula.

As you are well aware, most equipment related points are gained with arrows. And kids who are growing can go through arrows quickly, so top end arrows become a money sink.

Bottom line is unless you’re after something new for aesthetics, what she is shooting is perfectly fine and you will not add points by changing risers, limbs, stabs, etc. Get the arrows flying well and nose to the grindstone.

 

These are the discussions that frankly turn me off from helping a lot of people in Olympic target archery.

$2K for a bow for an intermediate archer? Really? Like Midway said, a Winex riser and Uukha Ex1 limbs are not going to hold back an intermediate archer. If they think otherwise, the problem is in their head and not their gear. I've had a lot of archers want to argue with me about this exact topic, and I use it as a litmus test for who I'm willing to work with. If an intermediate archer insists on spending $2K on a new bow, I send them to another coach because I don't have time for that mindset.

Take that money and spend it on lessons and tournament fees. That will be much better spent.

 

This


I have lots of limbs so I can keep parents from constantly spending when their child grows. Many of those limbs are older than the kids. Many are used, or
open box or demos from LAS. I am still having kids use 19 year old sky carbons Ann Hoyt sold me at a huge discount almost 20 years ago. As I tell my kids, you won't have the most expensive and the newest stuff but if you can outshoot the gear I give you-don't worry because you will be so good by that point, Hoyt or WW or PSE will be knocking on your door wanting you to give you their best gear. I know a guy who made a US Olympic team using Sky limbs that had been out of production for several years-go figure!

 

It seems like an innocent and honest question and, in my opinion, shouldn't be followed with an over-the-top emotional tirade that helps no one. Anyway...

Uukha makes fantastic risers and limbs and if you have a very liberal budget, I'd steer you in that direction as a contender.

Hoyt and Win and Win make and market quite a few different risers and limbs that would satisfy most archers of any skill level.

As others have said, your skills as an archer will be dependent on many things...confidence, attitude, understanding of tuning, and conditioning being just a few of the things that help one's progression.

Whatever keeps the person enjoying this sport is of benefit to all of us...and we all have different reasons and motivations to participate.

There are plenty of examples of people winning and setting records with "outdated" and "out of tune" equipment.

It takes all kinds. Enjoy the sport!

 

It seems like an innocent and honest question and, in my opinion, shouldn't be followed with an over-the-top emotional tirade that helps no one.

:set1_rolf2:

$2000 just for a riser and limbs? Or the entire setup? Most risers/limbs only go for about $700 nowadays so $2000 may be overkill just for riser and limbs.

My vote would be for a W&W ATF or Gray AIX for the riser. I would say Epik but it's got tons of moving thingies on it. Not saying an intermediate archer wouldn't be able to handle it, but the ATF/Gray are significantly more simple.

For limbs I would say anything in the top range, meaning W&W NS or WiaWis One, Hoyt Xtour, MK Veracity. They all feel the same. Pick the one you think looks the coolest.

(full disclosure, I am shooting a Hoyt GMX with WiaWis One Foam limbs.)

 

A coach for a year.

Best set up ever.




But to answer the question seriously, probably a mid range riser like a W&W Winex or a even a used CXT, AXT, Uukha UproLite, and then some decent limbs like Uukha EX1, Ux100, Winex, or used Inno EX.

Hoyt makes good mid range stuff too but theyre a little more expensive and if you go formula, you're tethered to Hoyt limbs forever.

Just because Brady uses Hoyt does not mean it's the best. Any and all bows will shoot 10's when in the hands of a good shooter.

 

For riser, used MKX10 riser or used Hoyt GMX

For limbs, MK L3 limbs or Inpers.


Chris

 

I second that because that’s exactly what I just bought. Veracity instead. And the MK X10 is freakin gorgeous in person.


Yeah I think this is just a fun topic. Definitely do not let that person actually spend that money on equipment. The only reason I switched was a change in preference. My scores actually went down because I’m still tuning and getting used to my set up.

The real way to spend that is on coaching and tourney fees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Could it not be argued that a person's preparedness to spend $2000 on a bow is a reflection on their intended level of commitment? Their intention would be that with the combination of their commitment and proper coaching, they could reasonably expect to reach quite a high level. In this case, they would have saved themselves the cost of the intermediate bow.

 

What some are speaking to here is a scenario whereby too much of the available money is spent on equipment and not enough then left over for coaching of technique and tuning and tournament participation/experience. It's a listing of priorities.

Yes, of course, though, you're right, too. For some personality types, the financial reach/commitment energizes and secures their focused motivation to pursue with vigor the coaching, the technique acquisition, the tournament experience/success.

Everyone succeeds or fails via his/her own individual route.

 

Commitment? Eh. You don't have to be committed to write a check.

 

Of course you do. The check is just the last stage in the process - before that is everything you did to earn the money and whatever work went into the decision to buy the gear you ended up choosing. The bigger the check, the more pain it inflicts. Accordingly, the greater care, research and thought required before you do it..

lee.

 

All you have to do is look in the garages of most BMW, Ducati and Guzzi bike owners. There are so many of these bikes with less than 1k miles on them. I’d say writing the check proves that one has the means to scratch an itch and nothing more.

You want to know what signifies commitment in our sport? It is all the hours at the range spent shooting when you are the only one there. It is the grit and determination to overcome your own shooting demons.

Buying equipment only signifies a fat wallet.

 

Well the idea is to find the BMW that has > 100k miles on it. Not so much if it's just a BMW. Same thing with archery gear. When I shot our league last fall there were several Podiums there, but they had fuzzy strings with the serving coming off of them too, just like the bows like mine where the grip tape is worth more than what you could get for the whole bow.

Those are the "winners" that you want to talk to about your next bow purchase; it's not so important what the actual bow is they have, it's how many shots are on it....

lee.

 

- a large fraction of the folks going "you don't have to spend $2000 to shoot well, spend it on coaching, etc." and "gear doesn't matter" have themselves spent that $2000 and often more on the most bank-loan-required, high-end gear currently available on the market. Meaning, they're actually saying one thing about gear but are themselves actually doing another.

Two thoughts come to mind. First, I don't think this is correct, and second, perhaps someone who has spent a lot of money on gear and realized it made little to no difference is actually more qualified to offer this advice.

 

First, strange but true. In the compound world, anyway. I've seen it more than once in my almost-30 year, er, "career" in compound; as I said most of it is inspired by the virtually yearly complete gear changes in the pro classes, where last year's bleeding-edge, absolutely top of the line bow disappears and is replaced with this year's bleeding-edge, absolutely top of the line bow. There was even a thread up in the general section not too long ago where the topic was what do the pros do with their old bows. Accordingly, there's now the folklore among the mortals that if it's even a year old, no matter what it is, it won't hit the target anymore this year and needs replaced with a new one.

Second, that's a good point, but it does still require reading between the lines of the advice offered. In fact, you can get the wrong impression if you watch the guy and he's shooting an 8 every other end with all that stuff. That's a very common occurrence too. That might lead you to incorrectly think that the Podium or Prevail or TRX (or whatever it is) is actually a finicky bow that won't work for you. When in fact, if you did go try one out, it might actually be exactly what you need. So either way, you have to be careful.

Like I said, I go by the bows that have the fuzzed out strings and the dirt and grime on the handle tape. Those are the ones I know are being shot a lot so I usually pick those out as my first candidates in the very rare event I consider buying a new bow....

lee.

 

Tried hard to make a combo over 1400 US$ Euro from top risers and limbs I usually suggest (you can guess brand of riser) , but no way...

Anyhow, if someone has enough money to spend, can get a Smartriser , 1300 Euro, and (may be) Nproducts limbs , 1600 Euro, total 2900 Euro= around 3500.00 US$ combo.

Then of course I can make a special real Gold plated riser for less than 4000 US$, if someone wants to try.

2000 US$ only is for people wth limited resources )

 

Then of course I can make a special real Gold plated riser for less than 4000 US$, if someone wants to try.

2000 US$ only is for people wth limited resources )

:laugh:

 

Guys -

To be a little blunt, if you are asking that question in earnest, you have no (functional) right to be asking that question.
Think about that statement a little, before you fly off the handle.

Viper1 out.

 

PS: having said what I said (didn't mean to defend spending 2 large on a bow), in the compound world at least, far and away the greatest technological advances in the last 30 years have been in the arrow and not the bow. The gulf between XX75's with NIBBs in them and what we have available today is wider than the Pacific ocean and that, I think, is the main reason scores have crept up over the last couple decades.

The main technological advances on the compound bow haven't been that great in the last 20 years. Mainly just new materials, particularly for strings and cables, creature comforts like parallel limbs and string stops, and things like sights and rests don't snap off them anymore. That's about it.

My point being, if you really have to spend as much as possible on archery gear and you just won't take no for an answer, strongly consider upgrading the arrow first. The chances of a modern arrow improving your score is, in my experience, significantly greater per buck spent than the relatively minor upgrade that comes with just getting this year's bow. Unless you're still shooting a Pro Vantage from 1990, the bang/buck of upgrading the bow is likely a lot lower than doing that with the arrow...

lee.

 

To be fair, the best archers have been shooting basically the same arrows for over 20 years. The increase in scores during that time has to do more with coaching, training and sponsor support that allows archers to shoot as full time professionals. I don't think there is really much of anything on the bow itself that can account for those increases. Certainly not the machined block of aluminum we call a riser. Really, the only chance might be in the limbs and strings if even then.

 

Don't spend 2K - wait for some person to sell their old stuff. Its like clock work- new gear, see it used within weeks on the classifieds. The Winex is a great riser and the geometry is tried and true.

 

I'm thinking mostly on the compound. The improvement was dramatic enough, in fact, to basically kill the overdraw which was practically a necessity on pretty much every bow on the market in the 90's. For a while you almost couldn't buy a traditionally mounted rest; you needed the overdraw bracket just to get a rest on the bow period. I had to run a 3" overdraw on my old ProStar because of that, even tho I didn't wanna shoot an overdraw . The handle mounted rest selection was so bad I just opted to do the Hoyt factory overdraw just so I could get my prong rest mounted on the bow.

Nowadays, carbon and carbon/al arrows are so much better that the opposite is true - practically nobody makes overdraws anymore and rests have all reverted back to handle-mounted ones like in the very old days.

As for the best of the best, I'll agree the equipment probably hasn't changed that much. But for the advanced recreational on up to just under the best of the best, those folks have _hugely_ improved their scores. Heck, even I shot a 292 11x 300 round in practice yesterday and that was at 6 weeks post-op after major surgery and I have just barely gotten back to shooting. Not competitive, but for me outstanding. That was with my ratted out PSE bowhunter class setup but with my ACE outdoor arrows. With my 90's equipment, I shot every single day month after month for years and about every 5th arrow went into the red no matter how hard I worked.

So if anything, I'm living proof that improvements in not just the arrow but the bow too have improved the abilities of a pretty large swath of the compound shooting community. You almost can't swing a dead cat today without hitting someone shooting 300's on a fairly regular basis. In the 80's when I started, that kind of thing was absolutely unheard of except among the very elite at the time, even for guys like me who lived at the shop and were in there shooting long after everyone else went out for beers...

But I definitely agree that sponsorship, etc., makes a big difference too. Especially in compound, again, which is now a first-class citizen in target archery, pros have the free time to practice more and just get better period.....

lee.

 

If you could buy points with equipment , would you?

 

If you could buy points in this sport, I would have never started. One of the great things about archery and golf and a few other sports is that there is no equipment that is going to give one person a measurable advantage over another. So even though they may play with different brands, ultimately it's a level playing field and you get out of it exactly what you put into it. If someone doesn't like that, then fine. I hope they go play another sport where they can buy their points. The beauty of sports like archery is they offer an opportunity to everyone. The elitists within the sport hate that and every year find ways to stack the deck in their favor. But the arrows still have to fly and at the end of the day, the best archer still wins. It's fitting that Robin Hood used a bow.

 

"One of the great things about archery and golf and a few other sports is that there is no equipment that is going to give one person a measurable advantage over another."

I will readily dispute that point, and I am sure I am not alone in this. I think it is pertinent that we understand that equipment does make a difference, but we need to also understand that results do not share a direct relationship with the amount spent, but rather on a number of factors, and the ability to spend is indeed an advantage, but care must be taken not to squander it. If equipment didn't matter, I'd like to see some XX75s or Nano SSTs in the X ring at the next Olympics.

 

"One of the great things about archery and golf and a few other sports is that there is no equipment that is going to give one person a measurable advantage over another."

I will readily dispute that point, and I am sure I am not alone in this. I think it is pertinent that we understand that equipment does make a difference, but we need to also understand that results do not share a direct relationship with the amount spent, but rather on a number of factors, and the ability to spend is indeed an advantage, but care must be taken not to squander it. If equipment didn't matter, I'd like to see some XX75s or Nano SSTs in the X ring at the next Olympics.

You know exactly what I mean. I'm not going to argue with you.

 

I think its important to be ambassadors to this sport, rkumetz. So, if you see someone who has 2 posts ask a question...maybe a positive spin and inviting "Welcome to the forum!" is a better way to retain and develop growth in the community. Just a thought.

I didn't realize honesty has to be brutal...I'll think about that for a while and get back to you.

Other than that, I'm enjoying how this thread is developing and like the positive direction it seems to be taking by all parties.

Good on y'all.

 

Honesty will sometimes be perceived as brutal by overly sensitive listeners. It's all in how it's received and interpreted. Some of us just prefer to skip to the good stuff and not beat around the bush.

I appreciated that about some folks who helped me early on, and I try to do the same. If folks listen, great. If not, they can be happy taking the scenic route. Makes no difference to me.

People come here for help. Several posts on this thread are honest and helpful. If they are coming here for reassurance that their decision to overspend on equipment is okay, they might be disappointed by the truth.

 

No disagreement there, at all.

I just think it's better to use honey than vinegar, when possible.

Personally, I believe that only hard work and a little bit of good advice here and there will allow an archer to excel...but R&D is funded by dollars of people chasing those points.

And more R&D helps all of us.

Like I said, it takes all kinds.

No one needs a 200+ mile-an-hour sports car as a daily driver. But if having one makes you happy and you are a thoughtful and considerate defensive driver, who am I to complain? More power to you!

It all trickles down in different ways.

 

No one needs a 200+ mile-an-hour sports car as a daily driver. But if having one makes you happy and you are a thoughtful and considerate defensive driver, who am I to complain?

This is a subtle but important comment. There is a difference between trying to buy new points and enjoying buying new cool toys.

I like cool toys. I occasionally buy something that I don't absolutely need because it is innovative, etc. Tools for example. I know that buying a really nice power miter saw is not
going to turn me into a master craftsman but I also don't like to buy junk.

It is all about being honest with yourself. There are situations where your equipment is holding you back (let's say that intermediate archer had a $75 camp bow that shot slightly different every time
you assembled it at the range or arrows that were not correctly spined) and then there are situations where the archer simply needs to recognize that their equipment is not standing in the way what
needs work is the person holding the bow.

 

R&D may help all of us, but the saying "a fool and his money are soon parted" still applies, and marketing departments are slicker than ever these days.

And TMD, my axes are very sharp. I have no idea why anyone would want to use a blunt axe. I understand what you're saying. Poor example however. I competed in timbersports in college and owned a tree service that paid for my college - hence the nickname.

 

https://youtu.be/4uotjB6XdRw

 

In my company of 120 men, I was known as the guy with the sharpest machete, a fact that only I didn’t know about until my OC told me to unsheath it in front of everyone.

But that’s not the point, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

 

All of the advice regarding investing in coaching rather than equipment are well founded. Except that the OP was not seeking financial advice. Or coaching advice. He may well have both of those things totally under control. If he didnt I guess he would have asked? His backhanded shaming , being lumped in “all of the others trying to buy a game” seems hardly fair or appropriate. And a tiny bit arrogant whether well intended or not.

A reasonable response might be “dont buy it because the high end gear requires a high degree of skill and might actually hold you back”. The golfing analogy was used above. You would never hand a beginner a set of blades as it could potentially destroy their confidence. Is a bow the same? Can a high end bow be less forgiving? I would actually be interested in opinions on this as I have never read a reasoned argument that would support this one way or another. And would be a fair bit of advice why not to spend $ if this was the case. If it wont hold you back, then go ahead and buy it, because whether you have the coin or how your being coached is none of my business.

I can think of a number of reasons to buy good equipment. As already mentioned he may aspire to be better than intermediate. Buy once and buy well. But also, I always calculate the cost of ownership as purchase cost less return when I sell it. On this basis the better known brands such as Hoyt and W&W fare better in resale thanks to their marketing. The cost of ownership can be less than buying something that becomes worthless as soon as you string it.

 

A reasonable response might be “dont buy it because the high end gear requires a high degree of skill and might actually hold you back”.

Polite, sure. Correct? nope. High end bows are not like blade irons for golf. Having said that, there is an argument to be made for beginning with blades because of the feedback they provide on off-center hits. Anytime I feel I need to work on my swing, out come the blades and the game improvement irons sit in the corner.

I was addressing the mindset that myself and so many other archery coaches have had to deal with over the years. This is as much a mental issue as it is a financial one. An overwhelming number of beginning and intermediate archers blame their equipment for holding them back because it's easier to spend money than it is to put in the time training. If that archer has a good coach, then the coach will tell them when it's time to upgrade.

 

I don't know the first thing about golf but this is not just limited to archery or golf. It is a cultural thing. I can't speak for other countries but it is pretty obvious that here in the US we are addicted to instant gratification. The generations who knew how you get to Carnegie Hall could apply that bit of wisdom to other facets of life.

I had a very long conversation with Al Henderson's son and came away with one gem of a quote that dovetailed with the way I though about archery for a long time: success in archery consists of doing it the wrong way absolutely the same way every single time over and over. You can't buy that. You need to put invest the time.

BTW I am on board with the catching more flies with honey theory but sometimes people are not rational and the coaching equivalent of smacking a hysterical person up side the head is to give it to them straight up with brutal honesty. I am sure (well, reasonably sure) that none of us would be brutal in our honesty the first time someone suggested equipment upgrades as the secret to success but sometimes people "just don't get it" and that is when they need that sort of honesty.