[Schleprock1]

Another thread got me wondering about our PA group. Another poster was saying how terrible the PGC is with managing the deer herd. Went as far as saying they may be the worst in the Country.
I started hunting in PA in 1979 when I turned 12. Back then antlerless tags were basically a mail in and hope your check doesn't get returned. At least in York County it was. You'd get a tag about once every 3 years if you were lucky. If you shot an antlered deer with 8 points and a 12 inch spread it was special. Here we are 40 years later and this year you can possibly have 6 antlerless tags in you pocket and we are consistently seeing larger bucks being harvested than we ever have before.

What could the PGC possibly have done better? They can't force private land owners to open their properties to hunters. I can't find the numbers but I know the PGC has added thousands of acres of State Game lands since 1979. Others on here talk of hunting all day in the northern tier and not seeing other hunters but seeing deer.

Okay, I'm done venting. Any comments?

 

[138104]

Any thoughts on what this is? I can't wait until you can transmit in HD.

Also found this on my driveway this morning.

 

[Schleprock1]

Any thoughts on what this is? I can't wait until you can transmit in HD.

Flying Pileated woodpecker. Notice the shadow on the ground below it.

 

[138104]

Flying Pileated woodpecker. Notice the shadow on the ground below it.
View attachment 7396415

Good eye! I thought it was something over a kill...lol!

 

[Buckslayer72]

Any thoughts on what this is? I can't wait until you can transmit in HD.

Also found this on my driveway this morning.

pileated woodpecker is my guess

 

[dougell]

Another thread got me wondering about our PA group. Another poster was saying how terrible the PGC is with managing the deer herd. Went as far as saying they may be the worst in the Country.
I started hunting in PA in 1979 when I turned 12. Back then antlerless tags were basically a mail in and hope your check doesn't get returned. At least in York County it was. You'd get a tag about once every 3 years if you were lucky. If you shot an antlered deer with 8 points and a 12 inch spread it was special. Here we are 40 years later and this year you can possibly have 6 antlerless tags in you pocket and we are consistently seeing larger bucks being harvested than we ever have before.

What could the PGC possibly have done better? They can't force private land owners to open their properties to hunters. I can't find the numbers but I know the PGC has added thousands of acres of State Game lands since 1979. Others on here talk of hunting all day in the northern tier and not seeing other hunters but seeing deer.

Okay, I'm done venting. Any comments?

I started to hunt the next year in 1980 and agree with everything you stated.My doe tag got declined that year but I did kill a 4" SPIKE.This was in Wyoming county where everything was private but you could virtually hunt just about anywhere.A 12" 8 point was a trophy.My brother killed an 18" 8 point in 1986.Word spread and people we didn't even know were stopping by all night to see it.It was one of the biggest bucks the taxidermist ever mounted.Today it's the smallest mount my brother has in his basement.My son shot a 4.5 year old 9 point this past year that would score higher that the buck my brother shot.He didn't think it was worthy of mounting.He ended up passing up 7 or 8 legal bucks before he shot that one.He also kill either 8 or 9 doe from early in archery season til after New years,along with a couple dozen pheasants and a couple of turkeys.Yeah,he has it was worse than I ever did.

 

[TauntoHawk]

For the amount of hunters we have and the vast areas of less than ideal habitat and or no ag (not necessary for deer but sure helps if you're trying to grow big racks fast) we've had great success over the last 40yrs in positively changing our deer herd.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

 

[138104]

Another thread got me wondering about our PA group. Another poster was saying how terrible the PGC is with managing the deer herd. Went as far as saying they may be the worst in the Country.
I started hunting in PA in 1979 when I turned 12. Back then antlerless tags were basically a mail in and hope your check doesn't get returned. At least in York County it was. You'd get a tag about once every 3 years if you were lucky. If you shot an antlered deer with 8 points and a 12 inch spread it was special. Here we are 40 years later and this year you can possibly have 6 antlerless tags in you pocket and we are consistently seeing larger bucks being harvested than we ever have before.

What could the PGC possibly have done better? They can't force private land owners to open their properties to hunters. I can't find the numbers but I know the PGC has added thousands of acres of State Game lands since 1979. Others on here talk of hunting all day in the northern tier and not seeing other hunters but seeing deer.

Okay, I'm done venting. Any comments?

I haven't hunted in any other states. Also, I've only hunted private land since 2005. With that said, I do spend time walking local SGL. I'd like to see more of a focus on habitat improvement for all game. I'm not sure if lack of funds, manpower, or both are affecting this, but I think that is lacking on public land.

 

[12-Ringer]

Another thread got me wondering about our PA group. Another poster was saying how terrible the PGC is with managing the deer herd. Went as far as saying they may be the worst in the Country.
I started hunting in PA in 1979 when I turned 12. Back then antlerless tags were basically a mail in and hope your check doesn't get returned. At least in York County it was. You'd get a tag about once every 3 years if you were lucky. If you shot an antlered deer with 8 points and a 12 inch spread it was special. Here we are 40 years later and this year you can possibly have 6 antlerless tags in you pocket and we are consistently seeing larger bucks being harvested than we ever have before.

What could the PGC possibly have done better? They can't force private land owners to open their properties to hunters. I can't find the numbers but I know the PGC has added thousands of acres of State Game lands since 1979. Others on here talk of hunting all day in the northern tier and not seeing other hunters but seeing deer.

Okay, I'm done venting. Any comments?

I commented on Conserves thread _ guess I am a glutton, the herd is in the best shape its been in my lifetime (short of unanticipated disease like CWD or EHD)....I think it really comes down to how people define healthy...some need to see 100's of deer on their rides to and from to work each day whether on 422 in Chesco or 6 in Potter...if that's the way you define herd health, you likely think the Commonwealth is on life support...but if you look at the harvest totals over any period of time that interests you (ast 5, 10, 20 years (understanding these numbers are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than actual totals as the amount of hunters who do not report in this Commonwealth are known to be staggering) and compare those harvest totals against license sales over the same period, you will see we are just fine....like I said on that other thread...there has certainly been some significant changes over the last 20-30 years, those hunters who change with the times are still finding success (likely on much higher quality game); those who haven't may be sitting in a treestand 20 yards off of a Walmart paring lot.

 

[Schleprock1]

I haven't hunted in any other states. Also, I've only hunted private land since 2005. With that said, I do spend time walking local SGL. I'd like to see more of a focus on habitat improvement for all game. I'm not sure if lack of funds, manpower, or both are affecting this, but I think that is lacking on public land.

I've hunted the same 200 acre farm here in York County since 1991. It only has about 40 acres of woods but over that 30 years I've seen different sections of that 40 acres go through natural stages a few times. I've seen wide open woods go to low saplings you can't see 20 yards through and the opposite. No logging has been done. Just firewood cutting of dead and or downed trees.
The PGC keeps some open areas growing in brush and has others planted with ag crops. And they do some selective cutting/logging. What other habitat improvement can they do?

 

[dougell]

The legislature mandateS a cap on the PGC hiring employeess and they're short staffed in many important depts.It's hard to explain how much science goes into every timber cut and they simply don't have enough foresters on staff to cut what needs to be cut.That's a legislative issue,not an issue with the PGC.Most would agree though,especially the PGC that more needs to be cut.Obvioulsy the districts in rural areas are different that those in SE pa.However,just an example.The district where I live in covers 400 sq miles and has about 32k ACRES of SGL'sThey have three food and cover employees to deal with all that.One of my best friends is a supervisor.They're responsible for mowing and maintaining the rifle ranges,SGL roads,signs,bridges,culverts,marking boundaries and they have to maintain and fix their old equiptment.Somehow they have to find the time to do actual habitat work.We have phenominal habitat on every SGL in this district and the adjoining districts but it's because of joint cooperation with several sportsman's groups who donate,money,manpower and equip.When people work together,it's amazing what can be accomplished.About 10 years ago,the PGC aquired over 4k acres of mostly reclaimed strip jobs adjacent to SG 44 in elk county.The vast majority of that was converted into some of the most impressive pheasant habitat anywhere but it never would have happened if groups like Pheasant's forever,Pa wildlife habitat unlimited and Fox TWO SPORTSMAN'S CLUB DIDN'T STEP UP TO THE PLATE.

 

[138104]

I've hunted the same 200 acre farm here in York County since 1991. It only has about 40 acres of woods but over that 30 years I've seen different sections of that 40 acres go through natural stages a few times. I've seen wide open woods go to low saplings you can't see 20 yards through and the opposite. No logging has been done. Just firewood cutting of dead and or downed trees.
The PGC keeps some open areas growing in brush and has others planted with ag crops. And they do some selective cutting/logging. What other habitat improvement can they do?

I'd like to see better grouse habitat. I used to flush grouse regularly 10-15 years ago, but haven't seen one in years.

 

[dougell]

I'd like to see better grouse habitat. I used to flush grouse regularly 10-15 years ago, but haven't seen one in years.

The PGC had a huge study area on SGL 176 near State college where they rotated grouse blocks every ten years.It was a great study and it showed great promise but what they did was cut small blocks of pole timber and let the tops lay for cover.It was all labor with no commercial timber being sold to offset the cost.Another issue was,you had to have the right species for it to work.You can't just cut let's say oak and expect to make grouse habitat.Finding that right composition wasn't available on every or even most SGL's.We do have the right composition on certain parts of SGL 77 up hear and they do rotate those cuts every 10 years.Could more be done?Sure,but again,it comes down to money and manpower.

Grouse populations are a strange thing because they cycle and you're correct,the right habitat is crucial.Something crazy has happened all over the country and they're blaming it on west nile virus.I'm not sure I buy it though because our grouse population has crashed around here and crows,who are more susceptaple to WN are everywhere.We used to have really good grouse population around here but as the right clearcuts matured,the grouse started to vanish.I had one last hold out on a piece of Moshannon state forest.It was a miserable climb to get there so it rarely ever got hunted.However,it was nothing but small clearcuts and grapevine tangle that seemed to go on forever.Up until five years ago,it was nothing to have 20+ flushed in a day.Within two years,I didn't see a single grouse or have a single flush and that's with a couple of good dogs.Generally you'll see a population decline and the habitat declines but this was almost immediate.I have no idea what happened and I don't think anyone else does either.I do know that the PGC's grouse biologist is working very hard to try and figure it out.Like you said,more needs to be done with the habitat but something else happened.In the end though,it's always about habitat.If you don't have the right habitat,you won't have the game.

 

[Mr. October]

I haven't hunted in any other states. Also, I've only hunted private land since 2005. With that said, I do spend time walking local SGL. I'd like to see more of a focus on habitat improvement for all game. I'm not sure if lack of funds, manpower, or both are affecting this, but I think that is lacking on public land.

I agree. We used to hunt in Cambria County. When I started hunting in PA in the early 90s, it was not uncommon to see 30-60 deer a day. Opening day of rifle season sounded like war. Shots everywhere and they were all bucks. There were years when there was way too many deer. But after the great Gary Alt herd reduction, the pendulum swung the opposite way and we started seeing no deer. None. Ever. At least on the game lands that used to have a fair amount of animals. Part of it was the herd reduction and part of it was the big, mature open woods just stopped producing food. Nothing was done to make those gamelands more fruitful for wildlife.

Then we moved our camp to 3D. The primary gamelands we hunt there has been managed with controlled burns and is virbrant and full of wildlife. We talked to the guy in charge a couple years ago and apparently the managers of the game lands vary by region and each make their own decisions. This guy was pretty on the ball and we told him of the stark contrast between the gamelands we used to hunt and the local ones. He said some of the managers believe in a very hands-off approach.

I also found the whole deer exclosure thing the DCNR did a few years back educational. Within the first couple years they were quick to show off the growth in these exclosures. Over time, if you spent time in them, you quickly saw the exclosure by itself didn't do much for new growth. Excluding deer AND timbering produced very good growth but, at least from my observations, not much different than timbering without the exclosure.

I also remember as a kid hearing about the evils of strip mines and how they "raped he land" and left it barren. Well, the best hunting, bar none, I have experienced in Pennsylvania was on the sites of former strip mines that had been replanted. There was every kind of cover, food, and wildlife imaginable. Deer, turkeys, deer, bears, song birds, grouse. All there. Sadly, that piece of property was privatized and closed off from the public.

 

[Mr. October]

The PGC had a huge study area on SGL 176 near State college where they rotated grouse blocks every ten years.It was a great study and it showed great promise but what they did was cut small blocks of pole timber and let the tops lay for cover.It was all labor with no commercial timber being sold to offset the cost.Another issue was,you had to have the right species for it to work.You can't just cut let's say oak and expect to make grouse habitat.Finding that right composition wasn't available on every or even most SGL's.We do have the right composition on certain parts of SGL 77 up hear and they do rotate those cuts every 10 years.Could more be done?Sure,but again,it comes down to money and manpower.

Grouse populations are a strange thing because they cycle and you're correct,the right habitat is crucial.Something crazy has happened all over the country and they're blaming it on west nile virus.I'm not sure I buy it though because our grouse population has crashed around here and crows,who are more susceptaple to WN are everywhere.We used to have really good grouse population around here but as the right clearcuts matured,the grouse started to vanish.I had one last hold out on a piece of Moshannon state forest.It was a miserable climb to get there so it rarely ever got hunted.However,it was nothing but small clearcuts and grapevine tangle that seemed to go on forever.Up until five years ago,it was nothing to have 20+ flushed in a day.Within two years,I didn't see a single grouse or have a single flush and that's with a couple of good dogs.Generally you'll see a population decline and the habitat declines but this was almost immediate.I have no idea what happened and I don't think anyone else does either.I do know that the PGC's grouse biologist is working very hard to try and figure it out.Like you said,more needs to be done with the habitat but something else happened.In the end though,it's always about habitat.If you don't have the right habitat,you won't have the game.

Also . . this . .
Grouse and warming PA climate

 

[dougell]

I also found the whole deer exclosure thing the DCNR did a few years back educational. Within the first couple years they were quick to show off the growth in these exclosures. Over time, if you spent time in them, you quickly saw the exclosure by itself didn't do much for new growth. Excluding deer AND timbering produced very good growth but, at least from my observations, not much different than timbering without the exclosure.


Prior to 2000,they couldn't hardly grow an oak tree north of I80 without fencing it.Moshannon state forest had fences all over it and the contrast inside and out were extreme.They DMAP'd the crap out of MSF and about 12 years ago,stopped fencing and took every unit out of DMAP because they felt the herd was reduced enough.The difference was amazing.Not having to fence was good for the deer and the rest of the wildlife.The understory that was once bare where you could see for hundreds of yards starting to fill in to the point where now you can't see 40 yards after the leaves are out.I remember people saying that nothing could grow under a canopy.That simply isn't true.It;s unreal what too many deer can do.I noticed the habitat starting to decline in MSF over the past few years and last year they started DMAP back up and started to fence certain cuts,The reason the outside of the exclosures started to take off is because the deer herd was reduced.

 

[dougell]

Also . . this . .
Grouse and warming PA climate

My question would be,why do southern states like virginia and TN have such robust grouse populations?I'm more and more convinced that it's a combination of habitat and the cold wet springs we've had in this part of the state.I'm also 100% convinced that's the problem with the turkeys as well.We've always had plenty of predators but the last two years I've never seen so many hens with no poults late in the summer

 

[Mr. October]

My question would be,why do southern states like virginia and TN have such robust grouse populations?I'm more and more convinced that it's a combination of habitat and the cold wet springs we've had in this part of the state.I'm also 100% convinced that's the problem with the turkeys as well.We've always had plenty of predators but the last two years I've never seen so many hens with no poults late in the summer

Do they? I have some friends who are pretty avid grouse hunters and they all go North now. Canaan Valley in WV used to be really good. They were there two years ago and didn't flush a single bird in a week of hunting. The bird hunting forums all have people yearning for years past and not seeing many grouse these days. NJ, similar to PA, has removed grouse season altogether.

 

[Mr. October]

My question would be,why do southern states like virginia and TN have such robust grouse populations?I'm more and more convinced that it's a combination of habitat and the cold wet springs we've had in this part of the state.I'm also 100% convinced that's the problem with the turkeys as well.We've always had plenty of predators but the last two years I've never seen so many hens with no poults late in the summer

Just a quick look around and it looks like VA is seeing similar precipitous declines.

That article also highlights how few people hunt grouse anymore. Mosty an older population. The over-emphasis on deer hunting has definitely killed off a lot of interest in small game.

 

[dougell]

I agree. We used to hunt in Cambria County. When I started hunting in PA in the early 90s, it was not uncommon to see 30-60 deer a day. Opening day of rifle season sounded like war. Shots everywhere and they were all bucks. There were years when there was way too many deer. But after the great Gary Alt herd reduction, the pendulum swung the opposite way and we started seeing no deer. None. Ever. At least on the game lands that used to have a fair amount of animals. Part of it was the herd reduction and part of it was the big, mature open woods just stopped producing food. Nothing was done to make those gamelands more fruitful for wildlife.

Then we moved our camp to 3D. The primary gamelands we hunt there has been managed with controlled burns and is virbrant and full of wildlife. We talked to the guy in charge a couple years ago and apparently the managers of the game lands vary by region and each make their own decisions. This guy was pretty on the ball and we told him of the stark contrast between the gamelands we used to hunt and the local ones. He said some of the managers believe in a very hands-off approach.

I also found the whole deer exclosure thing the DCNR did a few years back educational. Within the first couple years they were quick to show off the growth in these exclosures. Over time, if you spent time in them, you quickly saw the exclosure by itself didn't do much for new growth. Excluding deer AND timbering produced very good growth but, at least from my observations, not much different than timbering without the exclosure.

I also remember as a kid hearing about the evils of strip mines and how they "raped he land" and left it barren. Well, the best hunting, bar none, I have experienced in Pennsylvania was on the sites of former strip mines that had been replanted. There was every kind of cover, food, and wildlife imaginable. Deer, turkeys, deer, bears, song birds, grouse. All there. Sadly, that piece of property was privatized and closed off from the public.

I can show you a 20 year old cleacut that's nothing but red maple with a forest of nothing but red oak.When they cut it,they enclosed it with an electric fence and just enough deer were able to get in and wipe out the oak which was taking off in the beginning.About a mile from there DCNR did a 70 acre shelterwood cut about 15 years ago and fenced it with woven wire.After about 3 years,the oak regeneration was so thick,it looked like mountain laurel from a distance.A couple year later I went to check it out again and the oak seedlings were ravaged and stump sprouts all had a defined browse line.My buddy was the district forester at the time so I called him to see what happened.A tree fell on the fence and they figured a doe and her two fawns got in.That's about 21 dpsm and they completely destroyed a successful shelter wood cut.The stump sprouts made it past the deer but the red maple started to take over and very few of the original seedlings survived.Deer have a huge impact and the worse shape the habitat is in,the more impact they have.