[Kessick]

That's only part of trajectory, and the distance at which the slower speed decay becomes relevant is way farther than anyone is shooting a bow.

Look at TAC shooters and other long range shooters and you will find no one shooting heavy arrows. Josh Jones (MFJJ) was recently discussing how he can shoot out to 200 yards with his bow and it's because he's shooting 80+ pounds with a 30" draw and a LIGHT arrow, I believe about 350 grains. He said he couldn't shoot that far and be able to use a pin to aim with a heavier arrow because he'd run out of clearance with the scope.

This isn’t relevant to hunting. If ranch fairy was giving advice to shoot tac, you might be into something.

 

[RevBelleville]

These posts are always entertaining. I don’t understand why folks get so divided on arrow weight, broadhead type, or bow poundage. Everyone’s different and their opinion is right to them so yours must be wrong…. Just a constant circle. One of these days we will see folks goin back to light and fast and poo on those with heavy arrows.

You are 100% here.

God forbid anyone goes out and does their own legwork other than point at a screen, and say "look, this person said XYZ..." . I get it, some people have run heavy arrows, because that's what works for them or what was used by their father, uncle or Grandpa, and others lighter setups.

But the worst part is that when people that are relatively new or have to keep up with the Joneses stick to what some Shill on YouTube or IG has to say as the absolute end all!

These arguments never get this "sensitive / serious" at Deer Camp, with the Warden, or while shooting the breeze at your Archery Club... admittedly, I have taken advice when hunting out of state from friends that live in that state while hunting and have had success in whichever animal I / we are pursuing because that is not my common game type - yet this relates more so to broadhead usage vs. arrow weights.

 

[Duobarton]

This isn’t relevant to hunting. If ranch fairy was giving advice to shoot tac, you might be into something.

It is relevant to pin gaps though, which is kind of the base of the thread.

 

[scaler90]

If you are going to shoot just 70m then a bit more weight might help in windy conditions. If you also shoot 3d/field then a lighter point can give you a flatter trajectory so a bit more forgiving for errors in bad guess of distance.

 

[Mossy-Back]

This isn’t relevant to hunting. If ranch fairy was giving advice to shoot tac, you might be into something.

His video title wasn't talking about hunting. It was talking about trajectory, and he used some clickbait nonsense picture trying to prove that faster arrows have wider pin gaps, which is total BS.

 

[deadquiet]

I try to say the facts and not confuse them with my preferences. So I call folks out that say they shoot light arrows and get "better" penetration because it's not true. That said you cannot shoot a heavier arrow and get better trajectory either. Not happening. IMHO it starts to hurt your credibly when you let your preferences start to blur reality........

They key is not to try and create your own reality where physics don't exist but to use physics to help groom your setup for the intended use.

 

[legion_archery]

Even though a 450gr arrow from launch to 60yds does loose a higher % of its speed than the 650gr arrow does there is still has one HUGE problem!!! The 450gr arrow at 60yds is still going FASTER than the 650gr arrow is at launch!!!

I don’t think that’s a problem. That’s just a pro/con of different weights.

450gr vs 650gr you loose 60fps and only gain 2.4# of k.e

That is NOT a good trade!

 

[Pahunter1987]

His video title wasn't talking about hunting. It was talking about trajectory, and he used some clickbait nonsense picture trying to prove that faster arrows have wider pin gaps, which is total BS.

Like his comparison of a bow set 29"/70#, to the pin gaps on a woman's bow. Probably like 25" and 45#. Changing the geometry of the the bow and everything is definitely gonna change the pin gaps.

The guy does have good points once in awhile. But they are so muddied with garbage that the good stuff falls through the cracks. He could have titled that video differently. He could have left the nonsense out of it.

I mean, a heavy arrow at the same launch speed as arrow with identical drag surfaces but a lot less weight. Would have a flatter trajectory. But not by much. And as you noted earlier. The real differences are gonna show up at really long range. Probably past 90-100 yards.

 

[DaveHawk]

You watched 'til 7:49?

 

[Pahunter1987]

You watched 'til 7:49?

Not sure who that was directed at, but I watched the full video.

 

[raisins]

 

[jango_bmx11]

1) I didn't see anyone advocating for long range shots in this thread and MOST folks here are quick to jump on anyone who wants to launch those bombs.

2) You don't need a Javelin missile to penetrate a deer shoulder... but it isn't advisable with archery equipment. My buddy runs a tracking dog and a large percentage of the deer they find, are shoulder hits.

3) I don't bash Ashby. But I also don't necessarily believe his (or the foundation) word is gospel. Modern compounds have plenty of potential energy which is a component of penetration.

4) As I've mentioned in this thread... I've spent time in both camps and also have found my gear seems to perform optimally in the 7-9 gpp range. For me, that's in the 450-550gr range. It gives me a trajectory that I can live with and plenty of "oomph" when the metal meets the meat.

4) I wanted to start with responding on this one to say that we actually shoot around the same weight arrows (my current setup is ~520gr), so don't mistake me for a fairy dust sniffer or whatever y'all call it. I'm just pointing out some of the issues I've consistently seen among the light arrow side of the community. Do with it what you will.

1) I see several people hammer on the Ashby/Ranch Fairy heavy arrows based on trajectory and time-to-target (again, avg. harvest range is <20 yds), then go on to talk about taking shots out past 50 yards. Go watch some MFJJ videos if you don't believe me. This is a blatant contradiction that should be recognized. It's simply dishonest to pretend that trajectory and time-to-target completely negate all benefits of heavier arrows at any range, but it simply doesn't matter when shooting lighter arrows at extreme ranges.

2/3) Again, people criticize Ashby's data as being irrelevant due to his use of trad bows and cape buffalo as a test media, then turn around and say there's no way their brand new $2000 Mathews can consistently penetrate a deer shoulder. This type of talk is what got bowhunting BANNED in parts of Australia, which is why I make a point of refuting misunderstandings about the Ashby study. In regard to your buddy's tracking dog, lots of people think they can put a 100-gr single bevel on a 400-gr arrow and blast through shoulders. I've even heard people on this forum refer to setups as low as 420-gr as "heavy arrows". None of that is true, and it certainly doesn't disprove Ashby's data which found consistent success using lower energy bows and a much tougher target.

In summary, I don't have a problem with people shooting light arrows. What I have a problem with is people saying that shooting 300+ fps in the back half of the lungs from a broadside angle is the only ethical shot, because there's no arrow out there that can shoot forward of the elbow; or that 250fps is way too slow at any range but 300fps is good all the way out to 100 yds. I consistently hear these things, and it's just plain wrong. I'm also not advocating aiming for the shoulder, but with the right arrow that quartering-to shot is perfectly ethical. Ashby's data proves that. I'd hate to see a law that says all bows must shoot 300 fps, or have a draw weight of 60+ pounds. This isn't a far-fetched hypothetical! Several states already restrict archery equipment based on draw weight. Luckily, it's a low bar (I typically see ~35 lbs), but the only thing keeping them from raising it is the ethicality of bowhunting. When people start saying nonsense like only broadside shots are ethical no matter what or that 250 fps is way too slow, that's when we will see the regulation start to ramp up. That's exactly what happened in Australia. How many women, children or older people will get snuffed out if they raise the minimum draw weight from 35 to say, 40? Or 45? Do we just tell them too bad, while there's literally data proving they can continue to hunt ethically? I'm not okay with that. So yes, even though I don't personally take everything RF says as gospel or apply the entire Ashby study to my setup, I am going to advocate for the ethicality of bowhunting. If nothing else, they've shown that there is more than one way to be an ethical bowhunter. Thanks for coming to my Tedx Talk.

 

[DaveHawk]

Not sure who that was directed at, but I watched the full video.

There are a few who although I respect, I can't stomach their delivery.

 

[Boostedcobra]

Always check source for accurate information

 

[Poe Outdoors]

If you are afraid to shoot the shoulder of a whitetail deer with a modern compound bow at normal hunting distances, your setup sucks. You also need an anatomy lesson on a deer's scapular location and function. The heart and most vascular portion of the lungs lie behind it, why wouldn't I want my arrow to penetrate the area? My sons and I shoot the shoulder over and over and over again and the sub 75 yard tracking jobs never get old.

 

[Cemuhlbeier]

If you are afraid to shoot the shoulder of a whitetail deer with a modern compound bow at normal hunting distances, your setup sucks. You also need an anatomy lesson on a deer's scapular location and function. The heart and most vascular portion of the lungs lie behind it, why wouldn't I want my arrow to penetrate the area? My sons and I shoot the shoulder over and over and over again and the sub 75 yard tracking jobs never get old.

I think the question is a little more complicated that presented here, but I do agree your setup sucks if you're scared of it. I'm not at all concerned about shooting the shoulder of a deer or elk with my 440 grain arrow. My concern with this argument is that it's always that it's leaving out the vast, vast middle ground that is the 400-499 grain arrow which nearly everyone is in It presumes a lot of things. That number one - a 440 grain arrow won't go through a deer's or elks shoulder. This has been proven not to be true over, over and over with countless examples of even lighter arrows with mechanicals doing it all the time.

I've passed through a bull on frontal and penetration hasn't been a problem for me. However, it's got a good punch behind it and is topped with a sharp solid fixed blade most of the time.. Moral of the story is that the evidence all suggests that the penetration problem should be tackled with the broadhead. If you're concerned about penetration use an extremely sharp, pointy, durable fixed broadhead. If you're concerned about hitting to far back shoot a mechanical. You just don't need to get down the rabbit hole of heavy arrows, extreme FOC and huge surface area 3:1 broadheads. Those all come with BIG tradeoffs. Sharp durable broadheads don't, there's tons that fly great.

It's also stated more of as a fact vs educated opinion that the best spot to aim is up front behind the shoulder. I don't disagree that it is most vascular and lethal spot to hit. But you've got to hit (accuracy) it and get through. It doesn't leave the most room for error vertically or horizontally. Plus there's still no guarantee that even the heaviest arrow won't stop in the thickest part of the bone. I did a ton of looking around for any vitals photos I could find and all of them show a whole lot more lethal real estate no near bone. This isn't settled to me at all that a mechanical at the blue dot isn't more lethal than a fixed at the red dot. I have heard convincing arguments both ways.

At the end of the day - we're playing a probability game. I'll take the most forgiving setup that handles the widest variety of situations and has eliminated as many variables as possible. For me, that lands at a 440ish grain arrow with titanium components, 100-125 grain solid construction, unvented, 3-4 blade fixed blades with a quiet 3 fletch. Durable, quiet and great penetrating. All while not leaving a little 1" slit and limited damage.

I'll be playing around with mechanicals more in the future. Even despite aiming vital V area - I have a tendency to hit too far back. Due animal movement or I think my pin gravitates towards center of mass often times. I can absolutely see a mechanical helping in those situations.

 

[Mossy-Back]

And don't you dare criticize anything he posts or else the fairy cult members dog pile on you with comments about wiffle balls, arrows bouncing off animals, never getting pass-throughs, yardage forgiveness doesn't matter, Troy is the smartest guy in the world and we want to have his babies....

 

[jango_bmx11]

My concern with this argument is that it's always that it's leaving out the vast, vast middle ground that is the 400-499 grain arrow which nearly everyone is in It presumes a lot of things. That number one - a 440 grain arrow won't go through a deer's or elks shoulder. This has been proven not to be true over, over and over with countless examples of even lighter arrows with mechanicals doing it all the time.

You make a lot of good points, but couple of things I would push back on just for clarification (in order of increasing importance). First, if the light arrow side of the community is between 350-450 and the heavy arrow side is between 550-650, then the 'middle' is 450-550, not 400-500. I think this goalpost shifting comes from a lot of people that live on the lower end of the spectrum but want to be "normal". Just own it! Second, no one said a 440 grain won't go through a shoulder, but it is rolling the dice. What Ashby's study claims is that the probability of penetrating heavy bone goes to dang near 100% at 650-gr. Personally I believe the number is lower for whitetail, because "heavy bone" on whitetail is less heavy than that of cape buffalo. But there's no data backing up my opinion (just anecdotal). Finally, the heavy arrow side doesn't give a rip about broadside shots or personal testimonies about broadside shots. It's a soft target and there's plenty of real estate to aim at. Where it really starts to matter is those quartering-to angles, especially from an elevated position. If you're worried about broadside shots we've got other problems! Ultimately, IMO, it comes down to hunting style and where you need extra flexibility. Would you like more flexibility in range, shot angle, or a happy medium?

 

[enewman]

You make a lot of good points, but couple of things I would push back on just for clarification (in order of increasing importance). First, if the light arrow side of the community is between 350-450 and the heavy arrow side is between 550-650, then the 'middle' is 450-550, not 400-500. I think this goalpost shifting comes from a lot of people that live on the lower end of the spectrum but want to be "normal". Just own it! Second, no one said a 440 grain won't go through a shoulder, but it is rolling the dice. What Ashby's study claims is that the probability of penetrating heavy bone goes to dang near 100% at 650-gr. Personally I believe the number is lower for whitetail, because "heavy bone" on whitetail is less heavy than that of cape buffalo. But there's no data backing up my opinion (just anecdotal). Finally, the heavy arrow side doesn't give a rip about broadside shots or personal testimonies about broadside shots. It's a soft target and there's plenty of real estate to aim at. Where it really starts to matter is those quartering-to angles, especially from an elevated position. If you're worried about broadside shots we've got other problems! Ultimately, IMO, it comes down to hunting style and where you need extra flexibility. Would you like more flexibility in range, shot angle, or a happy medium?

The issue with looking at weight alone, as Ashby does, by stating that 650-gr is the bone break threshold, is that it accounts for only one-third of the equation (leaving the broadhead out completely), you must also consider KE and momentum.

By saying 650, it would be saying it doesn't matter what it was shot from. It would be easy to get a 450-gr arrow to outperform that 650-gr arrow just not from the same bow.

 

[Mossy-Back]

The issue with looking at weight alone, as Ashby does, by stating that 650-gr is the bone break threshold, is that it accounts for only one-third of the equation (leaving the broadhead out completely), you must also consider KE and momentum.

By saying 650, it would be saying it doesn't matter what it was shot from. It would be easy to get a 450-gr arrow to outperform that 650-gr arrow just not from the same bow.

Exactly. A 650 grain arrow shot form a 40# 25" draw bow is not equal to a 650 grain arrow shot from a 70# 30" draw bow, or anything in between.

And more arrow weight does not equal more lethality (another thing the cult fairies like to say). There's a lot more that goes into it than that.