Depends much on your shooting style, when I went from Ns-foam/wood to Velos my timing was very inconsistent and it annoyed me to the point of switching to MK zest limbs. (which are in between in terms of feeling)

The main difference is in feeling through the clicker, with w&w you have a bit more of a 'wall' to pull against giving a more secure and steady feeling, but it takes more effort to shoot, with hoyt i find it to be the opposite. For a lot of people that is a big plus, but for me, after having shot W&W for 12 years it didn't work out.

hope that helps!

 

Have you shot Uuhka's? What you are describing is very similar to what people often say of Uuhka's compared to conventional limbs. Is Hoyt the middle ground?

I shoot Barebow, so the topic of a 'wall' is an academically interesting one for me. In theory it should help reinforce my anchor by creating a 'feel' at the back end. But if that wall is being created due to a sudden increase in weight, then any inconsistencies in my anchor will show vertically on the target. Therefore, would a limb with a smoother wall be more forgiving for barebow because the weight variance is less when within the anchor's range?

Or do I have it all wrong?

 

Have you shot Uuhka's? What you are describing is very similar to what people often say of Uuhka's compared to conventional limbs. Is Hoyt the middle ground?

I shoot Barebow, so the topic of a 'wall' is an academically interesting one for me. In theory, it should help reinforce my anchor by creating a 'feel' at the back end. But if that wall is being created due to a sudden increase in weight, then any inconsistencies in my anchor will show vertically on the target. Therefore, would a limb with a smoother wall be more forgiving for barebow because the weight variance is less when within the anchor's range?

Or do I have it all wrong?

You are spot on. Limbs are designed to give a specific increment of poundage at full draw, which can be measured in percentage of poundage/inch, between 27" and 31". Lower the the number, the "smoother" the limbs and by definition more forgiving they are to small changes in draw length. This of course favours BB crawl errors (and lateral tuning) and those that pull through the cliker.
But nothing comes for free, so weakening the top part of the limbs increasing the top part of the curve to get this effect, may compromise torsional stability. So the more you weaken them, the more you have to cross-reinforce them to combat the countereffect, increasing the weight in the top area and therefore reducing the speed. Not to mention that extreme curves need a much lower brace to release the arrow on the line, so becoming more critical in tuning and handling.
The so-called "traditional Earl Hoyt" curve is the most used curve for basic and medium-end limbs, universally recognized as the best general compromise. But in the years, exploring different materials and different structures, other curves and solutions have been tested by makers, and they continue to test them to find the holy grail of very fast, very soft but very stiff limb.
From the other end, some top-level archers, generally in recurve Olympic, prefer an almost real wall at their position under cliker, so a few limbs are still made with a steeper "wall".
So, there is a market for all solutions, that mainly depends on the user and his shooting style and division. Some companies offer both solutions, some others are concentrated on una only, some others are still exploring super curved solutions and weak tip solutions, some have found their own "perfect" compromise and are still in it for almost all limbs they make.

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

It also gives insight into my original question.

 

So this begs the question "At what draw length does the "wall" occur?"

 

If you want a stiff back end, my Win&Win NS had a very hard back end. I have to go to a 27" riser to make them easier to shoot. However, I still found they would add more inconsistency as a began to fatigue during a round--obviously, you can simply be in better physical shape. I really liked the draw of the NS limbs as they felt very linear compared with Uukhas. They are also fast. However, while I didn't like the draw cycle of my Uukhas, I am more consistent with them over the length of the round as I am not fighting the wall.

 

So what did you stick with- the Uukha's or the NS?
Do you find the Uukha's make up for draw length inconsistencies as implied above vs the conventional NS limbs?

 

Neither. LOL

My wife is now shooting my NS limbs. I have MXT-XP limbs on order, which I hope will give me a compromise between the NS and SX50s. Right now, I am shooting the Uukha SX50s. (My SX50s were on a 25" back up riser. When the NS limbs became too much for me, I went over to the SX50--my primary riser is 27" and I had medium 36# NS limbs on it and long 34# SX50s on my back up riser so I had two 70" at the same approximate draw weight. So my experience with my SX50s is based on a 72" bow.)

I am probably a heathen when it comes to archery gear. The Uuhka did feel strange after shooting the NS limbs, but after a hundred arrows, I got used to them and they are quite comfortable. I am not sure if the Uukha does mask draw length inconsistencies simply because I am changing as I use them. How much of my performance because of the forgiveness in the limbs and how much is my shooting better because I am practicing is difficult to parse. However, when I hit anchor and am getting my draw elbow behind me, they are easier than with the NS. They are fast limbs. I am point on at 50m with 34# long limbs on a 27" riser and 265 grain arrows. One thing I am sure of, if I make a bad shot, there is no forgiveness I can sense.

The NS limbs felt crisp. There seemed to be a sharpness to them which I felt added to the accuracy. Whether that was from torsional rigidity, I am unsure, but they are a more rigid limb. BTW, my wife who has been shooting WNS Explore limbs noticed the difference right away when shooting the NS limbs and, while she enjoys archery, she is not a gearhead. My difficulty was even on a 27" riser, my draw weight OTF was nearly 40# with 36# limbs and draw length a little under 30". I felt there was not a lot of room with my draw arm at full draw because of stacking.

One thing I am sure of is there is not a perfect limb. I am looking for something that lets me optimize my form and not fight my equipment. I feel like that is a long rabbit hole.

 

The NS is a very aggressive limb profile. It has a little dogleg in the profile like the ex prime and ex powers had…concerning uukha, I didn’t like the super smooth at the back end of the draw. I felt it gave me too many inconsistencies in draw length and therefore slightly different impacts on paper. I have always preferred a more conventional limb profile. The issue of core might affect perception. I prefer wood cores and how they feel at the back end. Foam always felt more spongy to me. In regards to Hoyt, I liked the maple core f7 and the wood core quattro they all felt great with a slight buildup at 28 for me to pull into. I initially thought I liked the bamboo core velos but I also came to the conclusion that they were way too smooth as well. As far as Axia... I can’t comment on how the axia resin wood cores are but I imagine the syntactic foam feels just like they always have. Limb choices are too much individual preference. If it was a one size fits all then graphics might be the best criteria for picking limbs. Someone is going to love what someone else hates. I like maple cores… some people don’t?

 

After shooting both the Axia resin and syntactic, I feel the resins have more of a back wall than the syntactic. I prefer the syntactic.

 

I like my Gillo GTL-88 limbs mostly because it would be difficult for me to keep buying and testing other limbs. There are SO many differences and attributes when it comes to limb designs, materials, draw force curves, draw lengths, holding weights, bowstring crawls (if Barebow), and the archer's shot sequence that makes "perfect" limb selection almost a Don Quixote quest that helps to have deep pockets with a lot of jingle. Methinks that for most of us it's a crap shoot with lotsa luck thrown in for what appears to "work best" ... for the moment. But for sure what will always matter most and is reflected in a tournament score is the archer's brain.

 

I would argue that body alignment and back engagement might actually affect the perception of how your limbs feel at full draw. Or any limb

 

I would agree and add that one can accommodate the very small differences quickly and the effective difference will be very small. It is also mitigated by draw length.

 

The NS-G was flagship in 2019. It was considered a fast limb. Will the Axia keep up? Faster?

 

Probably not. I don’t think it’s got as aggressive a profile as the NS limbs. I also doubt that the Hoyt limb would be as light as the NS limbs. The graphene adds strength with less mass weight

 

Very helpful thread. I used to shoot W&W One limbs until one cracked. W&W replaced them for free with the NS (not NS-G) limbs and they were very stable and very fast, although I realised I was over bowed. I switched to lighter weight Uukhas SX50s and the different draw cycle is very obvious with a soft back end (I have a d/l of 31.25” for barebow). I used to have some Border Hex 6.6H (super recurves) and they were like even smoother.

I am looking to get a new riser and limbs and want to go back to a more conventional profile. I tried some NS-Gs back in Nov (on a 27” GMX3, btw my bows are all 70”) and they didn’t stack too badly due to the longer riser.

Stacking can be an issue for me with such a long d/l so am keen to find out more about the Axias (for many years I shot Hoyt Carbon Plus).

 

My NS-Gs are rated #34 on a 25" riser. I get 36# mid-bolt on my 27" Xceed and 38# with bolts turned all the way in. Can anyone tell me how the Axia weighed out on their 27" Xceed? Did they lose the ~2# going from a 25" to 27" or not?

My goal is to get ~36# mid-bolt. Leaning towards the resin core at the moment.

 

The way win win are rated are almost close to 2 pounds heavier on a 25 inch riser than Hoyt. Hoyt are rated in the middle of the tiller range and yes usually would lose two pounds going from 25 to 27 inch risers if you want 36 on a 27 you should probably get 38 pound limbs.

 

I have seen Hoyt limbs with a plus minus one pound… meaning that you may get a limb that is 33.25 to 34.75 possibly even more or less on a 34 limb…I have seen it… of course given discrepancies between your scale and Hoyt’s scale. I don’t know what their published plus minus is.

 

I would expect general poundage to differ. W&W normally measures weight at a different tiller setting than Hoyt. Also, I have shot both. I found that the click zone is more firm for the NS-G. The Axia also has a much lower frequency of vibration when shot... This being said, I have a 31.75 in draw with a 70in bow. So my opinion may be skewed.

 

On my 27" Xceed 36# Axia Foams pull true to weight and are approximately equal to what my NS-G 34# limbs were. I say 'approximately' as I'm using a luggage scale to measure and compare the limbs drawn at 28".

I agree @ashton_probus, Axia are softer at the back and have a duller sound.

Even though my scores have averaged the same between the two limbs, I prefer the Axia. For me they are simply more comfortable to shoot.