I honestly don't know the whys for sure. Let me say i have one blob target shot to pieces and my 2nd blob i'm shooting it on the side and have started on the 2nd side. So i shoot my bows i enjoy shooting so i shoot i enjoy testing arrows and fletching and broadheads so i shoot. By the way Blob is still the best i have ever tried.

Both my mission 400's were bullet proof until i started shooting them 1/4 a turn from maxed out with lighter arrows like i shot last year and a aftermarket string that added 13 fps to the bows. At this point they both developed splinters nothing bad but they did. The camo 400 is 6 years old i bought it used the guy said it was only shot very little. The black 400 that i bought new had a small sliver on one limb. This happened after i started using a lighter arrow and more poundage. I had them replaced and one year later it happened again. Still shooting higher poundage and a lighter arrow. These were surface splinters center on the limbs always inside the limbs.

The Excaliburs i had were always fine. Until i got a 405 here again longer rail more poundage. And i was going thru limbs like trick or treat candy when i was 5. I had one set splinter just from being cocked never a shot fired. I had some fail after a few shots and some i shot a good bit. Trust me it had nothing to do with heating the limbs. The set that failed just from being cocked was the last set i got. Once i reported back it splintered after 12 hours over 2 days of just being cocked. The two fixes best i can report was a set of limbs from Danny Miller the deflection was cleaned off and i could tell it was easier to cock. The other fix came from Excalibur a new set of limbs with a riser. The riser pockets were more swept back and again easier to cock. So less stress on the limbs.

So i'm left to think shooting a heavy arrow and a reduced poundage bow Helps.
I also gotta think that just being cocked can damage the limbs.
I have also read countless times mine has been fine. So is it they don't shoot or hunt(cocked for hours) as much as some do. Are they just weak limbs are there limb pockets that are not right or is something else going on.

One thing i have learned over my 12 years shooting crossbows. I don't care if its string problems limb problems trigger problems. Get a back up or trade bows often. Unless you want to miss time in the woods.

So yes Ed IMO its just a matter of time. Depending on usage the clock it ticking.

What if we all shot are bows with the arrows they use to post there speeds. Think problems would go up or down.

 

The crossbow is the oldest technology in automatic weaponry there is. It's natural for it to have its weaknesses but then on the other hand, seeing that its such old tech. why than hasn't there been a way to perfect the weapon so that the limbs will never spoil ? This has been the dilemma of Archery since it began. Its still not perfected yet.
As long as something bends it's going to weaken and break eventually. The molecules heat and cool and their bond weaken and start to seperate. You don't have to be an Archery wizard to know this.
You brought up a good topic here and I'm sure it's been the number one subject that all Archers and Archery developers and manufacturers alike have debated since the dawn of its development.
Good luck and this will be a great read, once it gets going with opinions and facts. Maybe we will even hear from experts on this, hopefully, because I wonder about this all of the time myself. It amazes me how durable these limbs are. I would like to learn more about it myself.
Thank you.

 

Hysteresis

 

Unless it is an obvious thing like the limb struck something, dry fire, string or cables broke I list it as crap happens.
With newer bows, narrowness, speeds I do believe bow, string and cable materials are stretched to their limits of technology today. These new narrow bows like Ravin, some of the upper end Ten Points are under so much stress uncocked and cocked that the string and cables need to be changed more often.

 

I had a dealer tell me. He has replaced limbs on a bow and they would be back the next day with a splinter more than once.

Then like i posted some guys say they never had a problem. This has to go to the heart of quality control. Was your bow/limbs built Monday Morning or Friday afternoon.

 

Think about it this way take a stick the same diameter As a toothpick except a foot long and bend it. It will bend.

Take a tooth pick and bend it and it will snap.

I think one issue is the limbs are short. I also believe it’s the process of the limbs, as folks want more and more speed it requires more flex and more pressure.

I believe a good solid bow with 340-360 FPS or so with good limbs, not an extreme string angle, and a good heavy arrow is what produces durability and dependability.

You know for awhile some of the compound vertical manufactures we’re having a time as the speed era came along, for the most part they figured it out but they stopped trying to be faster and faster, now the big thing in the vertical world is shoot ability, smooth draw, and 330 FPS bows.


I think we will see in time bow
Companies will produce wider thicker and longer limbs, less string angle, not as narrow bows, and stay around 400 FPS mark or so,

I really value scorpyd for not chasing the super narrow market. I don’t own one but you don’t ever hear much about limb trouble with them. Neither do you the old Excalibur’s or the older 300 FPS bows!

The new Excalibur micros shoot amazing and are awesome bows but the limbs can give trouble. Not always and not all the time, some guys never have issues, some
Guys shoot their bows allot like me and some just sight them in and that’s it.


It’s like this a brand new truck eventually needs maintenance and repair! Those tires wear out!

 

Some very good input thus far on the ever eluding topic of broken limbs.

It is to my belief that bow manufacturers and/or limb manufacturers do their very best to concur this never ending situation.

I'm running just one crossbow at the present time and I'm not sure if/when I will ever get a backup bow. I can deal with the thought of limb breakage as long as its not during the chase phase of the rut. I do believe that if it were to happen during the rut/chase phase, I would become about as friendly as a gut shot grizzle bear.

Historically, I've been one to trade bows fairly often. My SUB-1 has been with me now longer than most any other bow to date. And considering the design of the bow, its cams, high let off, and its relatively slower speed it generates, I'm not too terribly concerned about limb breakage at this time. Considering I shoot my bow very little, especially when compared to folks like rt2 that loves to shoot his bows, I feel as if I may have some time remaining if and/or before it finds me.

With that said, the question of how and why limbs break is always on mind.

 

I think the issue is the industry has forgotten a very critical rule when building a product:

Design the product at set it up at 80% of what it is capable of handling!

Crossbows have way too much power, way too narrow, string materials and or design are not capable of handling the force!

Its time for out of the box thinking! Manufactures think they have to make a certain profit so they are building to that profit margin, they need to build right and take the hit a bit on profit. You would think they would see that if they build a bow, string etc and the volume of breakage goes up dramatically that their profit is lowered from rework so why not build so it wont break!

 

Agreed and goes to the heart of me running my bows backed off and getting a Excal 360 BD.

It seems to me they bring a idea to the ATA show more or less. Test the waters if it looks like a seller they build them in a rush.

 

On one hunt a few years ago. My son in laws 405 was broke and waiting on limbs. He was using my MXB 320 that day. I was cranking back my 405 with my back up limbs on it. When he said you better stop. The right limb had broke Broke. I had to run back to the house to get the Matrix 380 headed back and hunted. Thats the only time i had a catastrophic failure.

Small splinters don't stop me. unless there sticking out. I shot my camo 400 for a year with a small splinter. And it still shot fine when i replaced the limbs. Many of them are surface and don't get into the meat of the limb.

Sad thing is my son in law swore off crossbows after that. And hasn't bought one since.

 

i believe about half of limb issues...maybe more are do to user error. As well as most other crossbow issues.

Miss loaded arrow. Wrong arrows for the type of bow, cocking bow incorrectly. Folks twisting away on cables and strings with no real clue what thier doing.
I know of a few cases of this for sure.

Poorly made arrows with knocks that give way and creep up into the shaft. None of these newer high end models were designed to be someones science project.

I also believe that some bows have exceeded thier current limbs design as far as longevity and speed goes.

To light of arrow simply finds any tiny flaw in a limb and slowly works on it over time....i.m.o.

Having said that, if you into speed you need tp purchase a bow that has had that design intent from the strart, not an after thought and recovery plan to keep up.

 

I think maybe a small percentage of limb failures are user induced, I've had 2 hoyt bows that had small splinters on the corners of the limbs, I just sniped the sharp end off with nail clippers, it never grew or got worse etc, the bows were shooting perfectly, luckily my ten points have been trouble free as far as the limbs go.

 

what Is weird is ravin is the one that pushed the small fast narrative and unless I missed it I don't see them with limb failures ...?

 

But they are breaking strings and cables one after the other.

 

Ya the Ravin can hold its own in the cocker but being first to go small is a stretch, that was a Tenpoint design on the cable system and narrow design, funny thing is , Tenpoint don't have limb issues, or string issues, the cocker is where some have had trouble. Tenpoint also is smaller than the Ravin, but like I said, they should be they are the ones who designed the smaller narrower 4 cable design, not Ravin, Ravin just brought it out sooner, and we know how their first went,,,,,

I have no idea who makes Ravins strings But them as well as Tenpoint will always require more care and maintenance! This is also true of the Tenpoint cocker, it requires more attention than the wider bows that had much less limb stress than these higher draw weight bows, attention to proper maintenance is more important!

Any speed bow is always going to need more care and maintenance, just like a high horsepower engine, if you want top performance from anything, common sense dictates you have to understand it will require more time spent on maintenance, and more knowledge on the subject to keep it trouble free!

To many times people confuse speed with stress, a 380 fps Scorpyd with cam propulsion and a over 30% longer power stroke Is going to require far less stress on individual components than a recurve to get that same speed with such a short power stroke and just limbs using much increased stress yo get the same job done! This doesn't require a degree in engineering to understand just common sense and an understanding of each platform.

Like many have said, many speed chasers are not that experienced with any bow, and even more so with those using crossbows. I believe even on this forum, where we have a majority of members with experience, we all see many that simply but the fastest bow without understanding any difference on other models than theirs is faster! I also think most new crossbow owners buying a crossbow look fir one thing to decide which is best for them,,, Speed! Then think if a minimum arrow weight is recommended it is better. Now take a novice or minimally experienced user, with a bow that requires the Most attention to details, and add components that the most critical on that platform, and again, one should understand common sense,,, that is we know have a very high percentage if users that create problems,,, WITHOUT understanding what a problem is when happens!

I have argued with some on here who are self endorsed masters, but refuse to understand the difference between a partial dry fire,, and a full blown No Arrow in the bow DRI FIRE! Imagine how many users of all ages new to crossbows, create a situation where a nock can be less than completely married the string and create a partial dry fire without even knowing it! This is even more likely if they use capture, full capture, or even moon nocks, as they give less than the fullest attention to loading the arrow, and how critical it is on any bow, let alone HP bows!

Then there are some who have an understanding of how to squeeze more speed from bows, but think because they have a quality bow brand, they push it more, like tighter tuning, lightest arrows, lighter thinner faster less stretch strings and cables,,, Without understanding these bows are being pushed to the limit the way they come from the manufacturers.

Nist of these issues I know can be eliminated by users chasing reliability and willing to give up a little meaningless speed. That is 25 or 30 fps, that if you sight in at 30 and test from 10 to 50 yards won't see 1/2" difference in trajectory anywhere! This is a fact with any bow over 325 fps, and nearly unmeasurable when you get to over 400 fps, with any bow.

Using 50 to 70 grains heavier arrows than recommended, Say 425 to 475 grains, the mare poindage the bow, the heavier than recommended minimum I use. Then if the would go to more forgiving string materials that have slightly more stretch, every bow I have had is quieter, less vibration, more consistent with fps in a 10 shot string, and will be less affected in a side wind because of the heavier shafts. Then by maximising BH on a recurve, and tuning on a compound to factory settings without the HOT TUNE so many want, I know we would have fewer limb issues and failures.

But today most archers using any kind of archery equipment spend far more time interest and money on equipment than they hunting technique, just the way most look at hunting today. JMOA

 

I think it' been covered well. What are you expecting the limbs to do? How much energy can they store? How much flex does that energy storage entail? How much material is doing that flexing? What is the quality of that material and the design of the limb? What kind of shock is imparted to the limb when the bow is fired? When you have a model that is experiencing some limb issues at it's present power level, how can you use the same limbs, flexed harder to increase energy storage, and expect the limbs to hold up? Sure shooting heavier arrows may help, but how much when just cocking the bow and leaving it cocked for hours it taking that limb's elastic limit close to the breaking point? Crossbow manufacturers are getting close to scraping the ceiling of what's possible for today's materials. Some of the faster crossbows are only capable of being cocked with a crank. In order to draw new customers, bows are being asked to do more and more with less material. I suppose the best companies test thoroughly to keep their products around the 80% that Jerry mentioned, but I doubt they all do.

 

This is it right here !! case in point i pushed my Scorpyd not to the limit but close , guess what , i lost a limb last week . the limbs have been in testing on that bow for 2 years i finally found there breaking point or there weakness . Before that they had shot a ton of shots at the manufacturers set total limb flex .
So IMO pushing the limit to sell product is what causes it , when you push the limits you find flaws ,simple as that !!!
Ask yourself ,why do we not see the slower less poundage bows not blowing , only the fast high pounders ?

 

Good post, Jeff!

 

Wildcatter,

I have an Ravin R9 that I bought new at the beginning of last year. Is there something I need to know about it being a first model? It came with the orange nocks on the arrows. This is my first crossbow. Haven't shot at a deer or turkey yet with yet it but I like it. Being narrow was the attraction to me.

 

It does seem like it's a crap shoot at times. Some have great luck with certain limbs, while others can't seem to use the same product very long without issues. It boggles the mind. Other times, companies are looking for sales and end up with trouble. A few years ago, Middleton tried to one up Excal by making similar power recurves that were lighter and shorter than the Excals with the same #. Middleton limbs were always narrower and thicker than the flared Excal limbs, so that was more stress to begin with. Outside bend of the limb stretches, inside compresses. A narrower limb reduces the amount of material to deform and store energy, so even with their 36" limbs, they were stressed harder. Then he tried to duplicate a 30", wide/thin Matrix limb, 13.9" power stroke Mega 405, and try to make a narrow 28" limb make the same power with an 11.5" power stroke. I'm sure a few of those bows may have shot for a few years without issues, but it was not a good bet. A few years ago, I saw on forums that KI was having trouble with limbs on their Furious 370s. Made sense as they are made by Hori-Zone and the Hori-Zone Cornet (SA Sports Empire Aggressor) was also infamous for limb issues. What do they do, have Hori Zone make the Ripper 415 (and Centerpoint made the Whisper 405). Same basic limbs, now with tighter ata cocked. What could go wrong? I know one forum friend who has the Ripper, and his second set of limbs has been excellent. He also shoots more than most crossbow owners, so he (and many others, I'm sure) can get a good set of limbs on the bow and be very happy, while others have sworn off the brand as too much trouble. There is a guy on Crossbow Nation who has been "calling out" KI to increase the quality of their limbs. As far as I know, KI doesn't even make limbs. At most they assemble the stuff that's imported. Forum perceptions are another thing. Some people who have a number of issues with certain companies post something about it every time there is an issue. Others get the maker's CS involved and say little about problems. As soon as certain brands are mentioned, certain people can get defensive. Some big personalities get off on praising certain brands and develop quite a following. When others are having issues with the current apple of their eye, they swear they are having no problems at all, in some cases even stating they dry fired a certain (high risk) bow a few times and had no issues. Only when their eyes shifted to a different apple did the truth quietly come out. "I move on from that brand because of too many limb issues." Probably half of my post count on here is from ArcheryTalk vertical side. I still clearly remember when Bowtech came out with the Allegiance and their other first binary cams with billet limbs. Guys were breaking limbs left and right, but the Bowtech fanboys used the "Pics or it didn't happen" line until it became cliche. Others post a pic of their bow and say "Mine's fine!" Great! I'm sure that makes the guy with broken limbs feel a lot better. "The truth is out there", no question, but often it's clouded by BS:wink:, and other times by what seems like nothing more than good or bad luck.

 

i just think how boring this all would be if bows were restricted to under 400 f.p.s.


Gosh...did you see the new 368 f.p.s bow with a great trigger and life time warranty. Which one of the new 150 plus bows released in the last 2 years was was that.....?

Gash Hank....don,t know, was it black 362 f.p.s model or the faster 363 f.p.s camo model with a 270 grain arrow.

 

My Mega 405 had some bad limbs also , so I called Peter from Excalibur and he said send the riser in and they will fix the problem got my riser machined and new limbs back , tested the bow and was shooting 377fps with a 400 grain bolt I was very un satisfied so sent the riser and limbs back to Peter , got original riser and a set of high deflective limbs used the bow for 16 days last year, 10 hours a day fully cocked and never had any other problems with the new limbs. They are the same limbs that are now on the bulldog 440 and the assassin 420 they are thicker and need longer spacers, my bow now shoots 400 grain bolts at 415 fps on my chronograph , if you do the math its probably as fast shooting a 350 grain bolt as the 440 bulldog and I can still manually cock it in the tree

 

For a fact most blown up ravins have had some yoyo twisting the cables till either the front of the riser gives way or one of the cables breaks.

This I know as fact.

Another fact is...prob about 1/3 or more Ravin owners are buying and using a bow waaaaaay out side their capacity, a brief stroll though this forum will also yield poof of that.

 

For a fact most blown up ravins have had some yoyo twisting the cables till either the front of the riser gives way or one of the cables breaks.

This I know as fact.

Another fact is...prob about 1/3 or more Ravin owners are buying and using a bow waaaaaay out side their capacity, a brief stroll though this forum will also yield poof of that.

A fact can't be probably

 

I have never had a limb snap on any of my bows and I have been a crossbow user for longer than I can remember! Lol

This is where good customer service really comes in to play. Most major crossbow companies will assist if it occurs. Something to think about before you buy a crossbow is what is their warranty and Customer service ratings like?