[EPLC]

Great topic, really has me thinking. The problem we all face with archery is it is not an exact science and as a result is so full of subjective opinion. Here’s mine:
I got my drivers license about 57 years ago. Most, if not all, of my driving is performed automatically. The most successful archers have achieved this level of automation in their shot. They have not developed a “surprise” release, they have developed a fully automated shot process that is controlled by the subconscious mine. Note that I used the word “controlled”.
The real secret is trust, trust that allows the archer to just let it happen without interference from the conscious thought process.
A mechanical release with a mind of its own is an attempt at removing the most important tool we have, the subconscious.
Of course what ever works for you is great, for me I would rather not go that route.

 

[EPLC]

One other thought. These automatic releases have been around forever. They haven’t caught on. Why?

 

[EPLC]

To believe what lees just posted, and has posted over and over again, is to believe that all release aids fire by themselves without human intervention. I think not. The subconscious fires the release, they do not fire themselves.

 

[EPLC]

We started out with an interesting topic and lees has once again forced his very narrow minded subject matter into the thread, thus changing the entire subject matter. Too bad.

 

[EPLC]

Once again, subjective opinion rules.
The release fires by submitting it to some human activity that conforms to the geometry of the design. That human intervention can be conscious or subconscious but it is a physical act.
Pulling is a physical activity. You need to pull in a specific manner in order to exert specific pressure on the release in order for it to fire. Just because you were not conscious of the exact moment of execution doesn’t mean you didn’t do it.
One of my releases has been sitting cocked on a bench in my cellar for months and has not gone off. If it does it will truly be a surprise.

 

[EPLC]

Fact: a hinge release will not fire by simply pulling on it. It needs to rotate.
Fact: a trigger release will not fire without the trigger being tripped.
Fact: a tension release will fire by pulling.
Fact: a automatic release will fire without human action once the safety is released.

 

[EPLC]

Speaking of Steve Anderson. At the Field Nationals this past summer I overheard him telling someone that he doesn’t tighten his back muscles to execute. I was walking by so I didn’t hear any more of the conversation. I wish I did.
And the “you didn’t, the release did” is crap. The release does NOTHING without human intervention. Exception being the SCAT or others like it.

 

[EPLC]

ME > "Just because you were not conscious of the exact moment of execution doesn’t mean you didn’t do it."

YOU > Completely incorrect. You are not conscious of the exact moment of the release precisely because you didn't perform it in the first place. The release aid did it. Strange but true.

Mentally you didn't but physically you did. Your unawareness doesn't change that fact. In the case of an index trigger there has to be enough pressure on the trigger to make it fire. It moves, it has to, and you did it. Of course if your coach is there pulling the trigger for you then you didn't, if not, you did. While I do agree that you may or may not be physically moving your finger, the shot is being executed physically. Pulling, expanding, exerting pressure with the finger or a combination of these and other physical moves cause the trigger to be pulled. The release does not fire itself, it can't, it won't and never will.

In the book "How Champions Think" by Bob Rittella he discusses how the then rookie Lebron James went from a poor 3-point shooter to one of the best. He suggested LeBron shoot and make 200 3 pointers a day. It didn't matter how many shots it took to get there as long as he made 200 per day. LeBron did this and improved his 3 point shooting to where he is today. He doesn't think about that shot, he just reacts to the situation and lets his subconscious make the shot. Archery is no different. With enough purposeful practice you can make any skill automatic. I believe this is actually what is happening even though you seem to be in a state of denial about it.


That said; a couple of direct questions:

1. Will your release fire if your finger isn't on the trigger?

2. If you didn't fire the release would you please explain the physics of how that happened? Please be specific.

 

[EPLC]

I’ve already discussed at very considerable length the shooter’s participation in the shot. I’ll just refer you back to the previous discussion for the details.

Lee

“Completely incorrect. You are not conscious of the exact moment of the release precisely because you didn't perform it in the first place. The release aid did it. Strange but true.”

Statements such as the one above abound but you’ve not given us the physics of how the release goes off without human intervention. Please do!

 

[EPLC]

Jim, The Zenith releases have a geometry that isn’t d-loop friendly. They are designed to use an attached to the release rope. When shot off a d-loop they tend to hang. Try your release with rope attached and you’ll be amazed how much easier it is to shoot.

 

[EPLC]

Could you please explain to us newbies why it realease clean off the on realease loop and not the d loop, iv never experienced that with a zenith, ?? I haven't seen anyone shoot a zenith without a loop for several years. Maby im missing out.

While hardly anyone uses a release rope on some releases they should. The early hinge style releases were all designed to be shot off the string using their own rope. They simply rotate easier because they were designed to shoot this way. Today’s hinge releases have a geometry that was designed to shoot off a d-loop.

 

[EPLC]

Already addressed at length, particularly in the other thread. If you don’t read my posts, that’s fine, but you won’t see my answers if you don’t. Not going to type it all out for you over and over again.

Lee

No I don’t think so. Please provide the link to this information.

 

[EPLC]

Yes, I do think so. Read my posts; the answers you’re looking for are there.

Lee

I read your previous posts. The hang up is your claim that the release goes off itself. It does not. It goes off due to some motion on your part. Now I do understand what you are driving at with being responsible only for the process. I’ve tried to agree with you on that before but you rejected it.
SCAT and others like it excluded, the release does not go off without human intervention. It’s just not physically possible and you cloud what possibly could be some really good stuff with that insistence.

 

[EPLC]

Literal - An unanticipated release is our goal.
Figurative - If you just let it happen the release will fire itself.

Sometimes these things get misinterpreted.

 

[EPLC]

It's funny to me how people are arguing over terminology, we all know that we don't want to be truly "Surprised" by our release going off. We all Understand that it's going to go off at some point between A and B we just don't know EXACTLY when, hence the term "Surprise". It's kind of the like the term "Target Panic" No one is going " OMG!!!, A TARGET, AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" it is just the accepted term for a common condition.

As soon as the term “we all” is used you are incorrect more often than not. Of course if “we all” is used in “we all view this differently” then you are correct most of the time.

 

[EPLC]

Your subconscious actions are performed "automatically" without the need (or ability) for the execution of intelligent calculation.
They are purely reactive/responsive. They are "dumb".

You can walk subconsciously, until you need to make a decision in order to avoid falling down a manhole.
But the instant that you have to make a decision, your subconscious process stops, and you have to consciously focus on the single obstacle in your path.

Actually your analogy isn’t valid. The subconscious can handle very complex maneuvers. Manhole covers, no problem. It is especially good at that kind of stuff and can react many times faster than conscious thinking. You try and manually think your way out of everything and you will fail.
About 20 or so years ago on my way to NJ a car suddenly pulled directly into my path at a split in the highway. I went through several complex maneuvers to avoid a deadly collision at high speeds. I was aware of what I was doing but it was all automatic, no conscious thought what so ever. I was driving a Acura Integra GT. I still don’t know how I missed that moron but I did. That car, combined with years of driving experience resulted in a series of fully automated responses that may have saved lives, mine included.

 

[EPLC]

Neither of those examples describe the performance of a subconscious behavior.
You both made deliberate decisions, and performed deliberate (albeit previously trained) actions that you were in complete control of.

Subconscious acts might be predictable, but they are involuntary and you don't have the ability to deliberately control or really even alter the behavior.
Even if it is totally undesirable and you are made fully aware of it.

https://sciencefictional.net/2013/04/20/subconscious-driving/
Read this ^

A small snippet below:
“This is a natural process that in effect minimizes the dangers of driving on a conscious level so that you can function behind the wheel. It does a fine job. So good, in fact, that many people not only minimize their fear of the danger of driving, but they actually become totally oblivious to those dangers. These people then carelessly speed, tailgate, swerve recklessly in and out of lanes, read, talk on the phone, eat, and even apply makeup while driving. They are totally hypnotized at this point, operating on a purely subconscious level, totally oblivious to the danger that they are creating for others as well as themselves….” [2]

 

[EPLC]

A very simple example:
Animal runs out in front of your car. You hit the break. Your eyes see the problem and you subconscious mind takes action and hits the break. There is no conscious activity required to do this. You may even have to turn the wheel, etc. at the same time. This is all handled below the conscious.
The conscious mind represents only about 10% of mind activity.

 

[EPLC]

You don't learn to perform subconscious actions by "trying" to learn to do something subconsciously.
That's not how Classical Conditioning works.

Trying to learn how to subconsciously drive a vehicle on the highway, is just as nonsensical and destined to fail, as trying to learn how to operate your release aid subconsciously.

I don’t know where you got this notion as I don’t remember anyone claiming to train the subconscious other than through conscious and repetitive actions. I’m referring to archery and other sports as the subconscious has many levels and as a result many ways it can learn.

 

[EPLC]

Blind bale is actually done in an attempt to untrain some of the subconscious behaviors that we have learned from repetition.
Your goal while practicing should be to constantly strive to avoid conditioning subconscious behaviors into your shot execution.

Because some of those subconscious behaviors, when established, ARE in fact what we recognize as Target Panic once we become aware of them.

Now this is an interesting perspective. One has to be very careful not to train bad habits as they can be ingrained as well as good ones. Blind baling is especially dangerous in this respect as well as just flinging arrows without specific goals.