i can see the arrow turning slightly right before impact! does this mean i need a tune job?
pse85
Sounds like an arrow rest problem with your vanes touching your launcher or riser.
Look for streaks on the riser by the berger hole or put powder on the vanes and check for contact.
Could be a spine issue too.
Look for streaks on the riser by the berger hole or put powder on the vanes and check for contact.
Could be a spine issue too.
Lol. the title on the home page is "when i shoot me bow my arrows hit the target" lol....ok continue.
Add some details about bow type and weight. Arrow type, weight and spine, ( 400, 340 etc), and what type of flights and arrow rest you're using. Also whether you're using a D loop and release, and post a couple pictures!
Sit and write down everything that goes into hitting the spot. Anyone of them and probably a multiple of them is your problem. Takes me a long time to find 4 arrows that will hit the same spot. I can make them all hit their own spot over and over, but finding a quiverfull that all hit the same spot is a chore. Arrows are not all that consistent and get worse with age. Here's something else about that biscuit, it creates heat when the shaft flys through it. That heat, like it does to many things causes a more rapid break down of the properties. Something a drop away boils down to a bare minimum.
What you have going on is a tug of war, one part is pushing it this way and another is pulling it back and some how it gets close. Imagine if all the parts were function as a group all pushing that point into that spot. With all the parts on your list finding the right ones take time, but you have 8 months a year to have fun doing it. In the end if all the parts are working together instead of try to compensate for each's failures you'll end up with a tiny amount of vibration which equals all that noise that's going on and increased speed and efficiency.
No shop is going to spend the time needed to get you there, it would cost you a fortune if they charged you by the hour and they can't do it for you since you are part of the equation. Sorry to say it takes trial, error, and an attitude that learns to explain away the ridiculous cost of doing it.
What you have going on is a tug of war, one part is pushing it this way and another is pulling it back and some how it gets close. Imagine if all the parts were function as a group all pushing that point into that spot. With all the parts on your list finding the right ones take time, but you have 8 months a year to have fun doing it. In the end if all the parts are working together instead of try to compensate for each's failures you'll end up with a tiny amount of vibration which equals all that noise that's going on and increased speed and efficiency.
No shop is going to spend the time needed to get you there, it would cost you a fortune if they charged you by the hour and they can't do it for you since you are part of the equation. Sorry to say it takes trial, error, and an attitude that learns to explain away the ridiculous cost of doing it.
All 3 above could easily be the cause....Spine issue, tuning/rest adjustment or form/hand torque. If it were me, I would do a walkback tune with my best shooting form or as someone else suggested, have someone else shoot the bow.
I don't think shooting form gets nearly enough attention in this type of thread. Over the years, I have seen good shooters have great results with crummy equipment, but seldom the other way around. My fav quote from a buddy at our club: "there's not to many of us around here out-shooting our equipment".
Good luck with the bow, some good suggestions, here.
I don't think shooting form gets nearly enough attention in this type of thread. Over the years, I have seen good shooters have great results with crummy equipment, but seldom the other way around. My fav quote from a buddy at our club: "there's not to many of us around here out-shooting our equipment".
Good luck with the bow, some good suggestions, here.
I am a collector of information given by "Nuts&Bolts" here on Archery Talk. This may seem confusing at first, but this is an extremely simple method of tuning your bow and you will be surprised how quickly you get your bow tweaked in.
Good Luck and if you have more questions, search for posts by "Nuts&Bolts"... an AT legend...
thenon
Nuts&Bolts “Modified French Tuning”
Start with field points.
The idea is to get the arrow rest center shot as good as you can get it
(very close ball park),
and then complete your tuning with broadheads.
You can use paper tuning to figure out your arrow rest centershot.
You can use walk back tuning to figure out your centershot.
You can use French Tuning to figure out your centershot.
You can use the "eyeball" method, and get er close to figure out your centershot.
You can use what I call MODIFIED French Tuning to figure out your centershot.
Just shoot at a string with a weight on the end
at 3 feet or 6 feet, something close,
and very comfortable.
The goal is to keep adjusting your sight pin a tiny bit left
or a tiny bit right,
until your field point, splits the string in half.
Take your time and try to RELAX into a steady hold.
You WILL split the string in half, when you adjust your sight pin
a tiny bit left or right, e v e n t u a l l y.
Then,
pick a longer distance, whatever is available to you.
30 feet would be great.
20 feet works, if that's all you have.
Just any distance longer than your short distance.
Fire a single arrow, if you are in danger of a robin hood.
If you are not in danger of a robin hood, at your "longer distance",
then by all means,
shoot a 2 arrow or 3 arrow group........
Here is a QUOTE from axp117crow
here is my [axp117crow] FINISHED GROUP AT 10 yards
FINISHED GROUP AT 3yds
i [axp117crow]split the string once(most of the time the arrow just pushed it into the target). i have to get longer distances to make sure i'm perfectly dialed in, there may be some tiny adjustments still needed. but this works really good if you have limited space. also, it worked better for me than paper and walkback tuning
So, folks,
no need to be an expert shot.
Yup,
do MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING works best indoors.
Just a short, really short distance.
Just a longer, whatever available space you have, distance.
DETAILED instructions, below.
Here is another method,
especially when you don't have a lot of space.
I call it Modified French Tuning.
Only need 3 yards in front of the target,
and
only need 10 yards in front of the target.
Modified French Tuning.
Another way to do this,
is what I call "Modified French Tuning".
You only need 10 yards of space in front of the target to do this.
John Dudley talks about the French Tuning method on his website.
I have modified his instructions to make it simpler,
and my "short version" will help you
set the left to right position for your pins (windage),
and
help you set the left to right position of your arrow rest (centershot).
When you are done with my "short version" of French Tuning,
then your arrow will be firing straight,
at short, medium and long distances.
You will need to go to the practice range
to figure out how adjust the vertical spacing of your pins,
for 20 yds and 30 yds, etc.
You need 10 yards of space to do this.
Just remember...
at 3 yards,
adjust the sight pin to the left or to the right.
Keep adjusting the sight pin left or right,
until you can hit the string with the weight on the bottom,
where the string splits the x-ring down the middle.
Take your time,
and keep fine tuning, until the field point
nails the string right on top.
At 10 yards,
shoot a 3 arrow group. Size of the group is not important.
Just keep adjusting the arrow rest to the left or to the right,
until the hanging string splits your 3-arrow group in half.
Now, go back to 3 yards,
and double check that the field point still nails the hanging string
right on top of it. You might need to make
a tiny tiny adjustment.
Then, go back to 10 yards,
and double check the position of the arrow rest.
You get the idea.
Let's tackle this one step at a time.
First,
let's tackle the centershot for the arrow rest
and
find the correct windage (left-right adjustment) for the pins.
I have a simplified version of something called French Tuning.
Don't worry about what this method is called.
Very simple to do.
Hang a target face so the bullseye is at your shoulder height.
Put a nail at the top,
and hang a weighted string,
so the string splits the bullseye in half.
Now,
start at 9 feet. Yup, just 9 feet.
Fire a field point arrow.
If the field point arrow misses the string to the left,
then move all the pins to the left. (Adjust the entire sight housing).
If the field point arrow misses to the string to the right,
then move all the pins to the right.
The goal is to nail the string perfectly.
You want your field point arrow to be exactly below the center
of the bullseye.
Now,
go back to 10 yards.
Fire a 3 arrow group.
Find the center of the arrow group.
If the center of the arrow group is to the left of the string,
move the arrow rest to the right.
If the center of the arrow group is to the right of the string,
move the arrow rest to the left.
Goal is to have the hanging string split your arrow group in half.
Now,
go back to 9 feet.
Fire a field point arrow.
If the field point arrow does not exactly nail the hanging string,
then adjust all of your pins to the left or right,
until the arrow is dead center under the exact center of the bullseye.
Now,
go back to 10 yards.
Adjust the arrow rest in tiny amounts,
until the hanging string splits your 3 arrow group in half.
When you are done,
you can fire a field point arrow from 9 feet
and it will be exactly underneath the center of the bullseye.
Your 3 arrow group from 10 yards,
will also be split in half by the hanging string.
Now, your centershot (arrow rest)
and your windage (pins) will be perfect.
Comments on Paper tuning…
I never did understand the fascination with paper tuning.
Let's say we are talking about golf.
The swing coach says try this
and try that.
After some experimentation,
you start hitting hole in one
after hole in one
after hole in one.
Now,
would it make much sense
to check your swing plane angle
and club speed
to confirm if these two criteria are in spec?
Try the modified french tuning.
6 feet and 30 feet
or
6 feet and 20 feet
or
6 feet and 36 feet (whatever longer distance in convenient).
Then,
go out to the practice range
and shoot 60 yards.
You might, need a teeny tiny
adjustment to the arrow rest
to lock down the arrow group
and center it to the bullseye.
Modified french tuning
only helps you figure out
the horizontal adjustment
for the arrow rest
and
for the sight pin.
If you want to "super tune",
then we can experiment with front to rear
bow balance,
we can experiment
with creep tuning to adjust cam starting position
we can experiment
with d-loop position (affects cam timing)
(affects nock travel)
(affects group size).......
that's why in my writeup
of "modified" french tuning,
I say that moving the d-loop a tiny bit
higher or lower
could possibly shrink your groups...
but, then again,
so could taking 1 turn off both limb bolts...
but, then again,
so could adjusting the draw length ...short enough.
So,
paper tuning
will show you that the bow needs adjusting
AND at the same time,
can show you that you have a DL problem
(draw elbow out of alignment)
AND at the same time
show you that the limb bolts need 1 full turn off
AND at the same time
show you that you have a dropping the bow hand problem
AND at the same time
show you that you subconsciously grab the bow
AND at the same time
show you that you have too much side pressure on your face......
ad nausem....
so,
for someone as skilled as Tim Gillingham,
or a Dave Cousins....
paper tuning is a quick method to tweak the bow....
for the rest of use mere mortals,
a strange tear could be multiple problems
all at the same time, and it's not a procedure I recommend when helping folks via pm message
or posts of threads.
There are other methods that are empirical
and show less confusing information.
Good Luck and if you have more questions, search for posts by "Nuts&Bolts"... an AT legend...
thenon
Nuts&Bolts “Modified French Tuning”
Start with field points.
The idea is to get the arrow rest center shot as good as you can get it
(very close ball park),
and then complete your tuning with broadheads.
You can use paper tuning to figure out your arrow rest centershot.
You can use walk back tuning to figure out your centershot.
You can use French Tuning to figure out your centershot.
You can use the "eyeball" method, and get er close to figure out your centershot.
You can use what I call MODIFIED French Tuning to figure out your centershot.
Just shoot at a string with a weight on the end
at 3 feet or 6 feet, something close,
and very comfortable.
The goal is to keep adjusting your sight pin a tiny bit left
or a tiny bit right,
until your field point, splits the string in half.
Take your time and try to RELAX into a steady hold.
You WILL split the string in half, when you adjust your sight pin
a tiny bit left or right, e v e n t u a l l y.
Then,
pick a longer distance, whatever is available to you.
30 feet would be great.
20 feet works, if that's all you have.
Just any distance longer than your short distance.
Fire a single arrow, if you are in danger of a robin hood.
If you are not in danger of a robin hood, at your "longer distance",
then by all means,
shoot a 2 arrow or 3 arrow group........
Here is a QUOTE from axp117crow
here is my [axp117crow] FINISHED GROUP AT 10 yards
FINISHED GROUP AT 3yds
i [axp117crow]split the string once(most of the time the arrow just pushed it into the target). i have to get longer distances to make sure i'm perfectly dialed in, there may be some tiny adjustments still needed. but this works really good if you have limited space. also, it worked better for me than paper and walkback tuning
So, folks,
no need to be an expert shot.
Yup,
do MODIFIED FRENCH TUNING works best indoors.
Just a short, really short distance.
Just a longer, whatever available space you have, distance.
DETAILED instructions, below.
Here is another method,
especially when you don't have a lot of space.
I call it Modified French Tuning.
Only need 3 yards in front of the target,
and
only need 10 yards in front of the target.
Modified French Tuning.
Another way to do this,
is what I call "Modified French Tuning".
You only need 10 yards of space in front of the target to do this.
John Dudley talks about the French Tuning method on his website.
I have modified his instructions to make it simpler,
and my "short version" will help you
set the left to right position for your pins (windage),
and
help you set the left to right position of your arrow rest (centershot).
When you are done with my "short version" of French Tuning,
then your arrow will be firing straight,
at short, medium and long distances.
You will need to go to the practice range
to figure out how adjust the vertical spacing of your pins,
for 20 yds and 30 yds, etc.
You need 10 yards of space to do this.
Just remember...
at 3 yards,
adjust the sight pin to the left or to the right.
Keep adjusting the sight pin left or right,
until you can hit the string with the weight on the bottom,
where the string splits the x-ring down the middle.
Take your time,
and keep fine tuning, until the field point
nails the string right on top.
At 10 yards,
shoot a 3 arrow group. Size of the group is not important.
Just keep adjusting the arrow rest to the left or to the right,
until the hanging string splits your 3-arrow group in half.
Now, go back to 3 yards,
and double check that the field point still nails the hanging string
right on top of it. You might need to make
a tiny tiny adjustment.
Then, go back to 10 yards,
and double check the position of the arrow rest.
You get the idea.
Let's tackle this one step at a time.
First,
let's tackle the centershot for the arrow rest
and
find the correct windage (left-right adjustment) for the pins.
I have a simplified version of something called French Tuning.
Don't worry about what this method is called.
Very simple to do.
Hang a target face so the bullseye is at your shoulder height.
Put a nail at the top,
and hang a weighted string,
so the string splits the bullseye in half.
Now,
start at 9 feet. Yup, just 9 feet.
Fire a field point arrow.
If the field point arrow misses the string to the left,
then move all the pins to the left. (Adjust the entire sight housing).
If the field point arrow misses to the string to the right,
then move all the pins to the right.
The goal is to nail the string perfectly.
You want your field point arrow to be exactly below the center
of the bullseye.
Now,
go back to 10 yards.
Fire a 3 arrow group.
Find the center of the arrow group.
If the center of the arrow group is to the left of the string,
move the arrow rest to the right.
If the center of the arrow group is to the right of the string,
move the arrow rest to the left.
Goal is to have the hanging string split your arrow group in half.
Now,
go back to 9 feet.
Fire a field point arrow.
If the field point arrow does not exactly nail the hanging string,
then adjust all of your pins to the left or right,
until the arrow is dead center under the exact center of the bullseye.
Now,
go back to 10 yards.
Adjust the arrow rest in tiny amounts,
until the hanging string splits your 3 arrow group in half.
When you are done,
you can fire a field point arrow from 9 feet
and it will be exactly underneath the center of the bullseye.
Your 3 arrow group from 10 yards,
will also be split in half by the hanging string.
Now, your centershot (arrow rest)
and your windage (pins) will be perfect.
Comments on Paper tuning…
I never did understand the fascination with paper tuning.
Let's say we are talking about golf.
The swing coach says try this
and try that.
After some experimentation,
you start hitting hole in one
after hole in one
after hole in one.
Now,
would it make much sense
to check your swing plane angle
and club speed
to confirm if these two criteria are in spec?
Try the modified french tuning.
6 feet and 30 feet
or
6 feet and 20 feet
or
6 feet and 36 feet (whatever longer distance in convenient).
Then,
go out to the practice range
and shoot 60 yards.
You might, need a teeny tiny
adjustment to the arrow rest
to lock down the arrow group
and center it to the bullseye.
Modified french tuning
only helps you figure out
the horizontal adjustment
for the arrow rest
and
for the sight pin.
If you want to "super tune",
then we can experiment with front to rear
bow balance,
we can experiment
with creep tuning to adjust cam starting position
we can experiment
with d-loop position (affects cam timing)
(affects nock travel)
(affects group size).......
that's why in my writeup
of "modified" french tuning,
I say that moving the d-loop a tiny bit
higher or lower
could possibly shrink your groups...
but, then again,
so could taking 1 turn off both limb bolts...
but, then again,
so could adjusting the draw length ...short enough.
So,
paper tuning
will show you that the bow needs adjusting
AND at the same time,
can show you that you have a DL problem
(draw elbow out of alignment)
AND at the same time
show you that the limb bolts need 1 full turn off
AND at the same time
show you that you have a dropping the bow hand problem
AND at the same time
show you that you subconsciously grab the bow
AND at the same time
show you that you have too much side pressure on your face......
ad nausem....
so,
for someone as skilled as Tim Gillingham,
or a Dave Cousins....
paper tuning is a quick method to tweak the bow....
for the rest of use mere mortals,
a strange tear could be multiple problems
all at the same time, and it's not a procedure I recommend when helping folks via pm message
or posts of threads.
There are other methods that are empirical
and show less confusing information.
thanks guys,
im shootinig a pse fitzgerald nova at 257 fps 28.5 in draw 55#
im using a whisker biscuit rest and fiber optic 3 pin sight d loop and realease
my arrows are an off brand wal mart 29 inch blazer vane 125 gr ft,s and 125 gr venom steel force bh's
i went to the archery shop and explained this the time before and they said it was all because of a bh issue, so when i bought new bh's i was shooting the same as before! my fp's group fine up to 20 yards. i throw on a broadhead and they shoot about 8 in low at 13 yards and about 3 to 6 in to the left. one shot went about 2 ft to the left! i called the archery shop back and they said i just need some fine paper tuning and the rest and etc need to be moved. they said they would check my grip and form too! im hoping its not the arrows because they will charge me up the yin for name brand arrows! they said they would tune me for free though!
im shootinig a pse fitzgerald nova at 257 fps 28.5 in draw 55#
im using a whisker biscuit rest and fiber optic 3 pin sight d loop and realease
my arrows are an off brand wal mart 29 inch blazer vane 125 gr ft,s and 125 gr venom steel force bh's
i went to the archery shop and explained this the time before and they said it was all because of a bh issue, so when i bought new bh's i was shooting the same as before! my fp's group fine up to 20 yards. i throw on a broadhead and they shoot about 8 in low at 13 yards and about 3 to 6 in to the left. one shot went about 2 ft to the left! i called the archery shop back and they said i just need some fine paper tuning and the rest and etc need to be moved. they said they would check my grip and form too! im hoping its not the arrows because they will charge me up the yin for name brand arrows! they said they would tune me for free though!
You gave all the info except the size/spine of the arrows. Cheap arrows of the correct spine will be way better than the most expensive arrows of the wrong spine.
I like thenson's post, because it shows all of the minutia we endure to get to a solution to a fairly simple problem. If your arrows are the right spine, the bow is "bench tuned" fairly close and your shooting form is halfway decent, you can walk back tune your bow (rest position) in less than an hour. This has proven itself in my case to be the best way of getting good flight and getting fixed broadheads, field points and expandables to hit in the same hole all the way out to whatever your max yardage is....
Not sure if it was covered above, but you 1st need to have your broadheads spinning like a needle on the shaft before you even start shooting. It sounds like you could use a local mentor, that does not have a cash stake in your success. Good luck.
I like thenson's post, because it shows all of the minutia we endure to get to a solution to a fairly simple problem. If your arrows are the right spine, the bow is "bench tuned" fairly close and your shooting form is halfway decent, you can walk back tune your bow (rest position) in less than an hour. This has proven itself in my case to be the best way of getting good flight and getting fixed broadheads, field points and expandables to hit in the same hole all the way out to whatever your max yardage is....
Not sure if it was covered above, but you 1st need to have your broadheads spinning like a needle on the shaft before you even start shooting. It sounds like you could use a local mentor, that does not have a cash stake in your success. Good luck.
What type of target are you shooting these arrows into? Bag type or foam? Do ALL your arrows do the same thing?
Solohunter
Solohunter
Solo, not sure if you read all of the OP's posts above, but he is 8" low and 3-6" left with Broadheads vs FP's
I think it's more than likely a combination of what broadhead/grain you are using and the weight of your arrows and shooting at 55 lbs. I had the exact same problem with some cheap broadheads shooting at 55 lbs. I cranked it down to 68 lbs which made a huge improvement but was still hitting a few inches to the left. I switched to a smaller profile Slick Trick broadhead and was hitting dead on with my field points. You can get a pack of them for about $25. I would try that and see what happens and if you are still shooting off then take them back and look into a possible spline issue.
Buy some Gold Tip XTs or something for 40 bucks. I completely understand the economy but if thats big money to shoot correctly might be time to hang up the bow. Your probably paying at least 4 bucks a piece for the rough wally world ones anyway. Just do the math. Good and properly spined arrows are crucial. Sounds to me like your issue might be with tuning and your arrow selection
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