[fcmd]

Time of flight.

Yes gravity is a constant. Yes, both arrows will hit the ground at the same time. But you need a **** ton of poundage to get that heavy arrow launching at the same velocity in order to cover the same distance using same trajectory (same TOF).

Anecdotally I use two bows for Africa and take 2 sights for each bow as backups. In order to get the same POI I would need to use the 40 y pin on my 70#/490gr bow to get the same POI using my 910 gr arrows @ 20y, or use my 20y pin on my 75# /910 bow and be a little high @ 40 with my 490 gr arrow. Easier to swap out sights if one bow goes tits up.

Going light this year: 455 gr & 875 gr @ 70/73#.

ps God bless him and his hard work, but Ashby's assumptions are wrong. Pity, hats off to him though.

 

[legion_archery]

Even though a 450gr arrow from launch to 60yds does loose a higher % of its speed than the 650gr arrow does there is still has one HUGE problem!!! The 450gr arrow at 60yds is still going FASTER than the 650gr arrow is at launch!!!

Did you use a lab radar chrono? How did you get those velocities?

I can't find it but remember seeing a spreadsheet showing the speeds at various distances of a few different weighted arrows. There was a stark velocity drop off for the lightest arrows at a certain distance, but there was also a massive arc to the trajector of the heaviest arrows. I think the arrows that had the best balance of trajectory and speed were around 550gr.

It's funny how this is such a divisive topic. The arrows that indoor, 3d and TAC shooters use are specific to their sports and not an apples to apples comparison with purpose built hunting arrows, but I could be wrong. Isn't perfect arrow flight the most important factor for a deadly accurate arrow?

I have no skin in the game and won't build any new arrows until after this season. FWIW, I have 560gr trad arrows and compound arrows are 489gr.

I dont have a lab radar and i test the drop /trajectory differences.

Perfect arrow flight is actually not as important as accuracy, accuracy trumps all

 

[jango_bmx11]

The heavier/slower arrow also has more chance of not hitting where you aimed due to mis-ranging the animal, animal taking a few steps before you shoot, animal reaction.... And what percentage of the animal is heavy bone?

What percentage of the kill shot is heavy bone when your target buck walks up 20 yds away from your tree stand at a quartering-to angle? I can't be the only one who encounters this scenario more often than a 40+ yard, perfectly still broadside shot opportunity. In fact I know I'm not, considering average whitetail harvest range is between 15-20 yds. I'm not shooting past 40-yds with any arrow, but with a heavy arrow, you can take that quartering-to shot every time.
Some may consider that unethical, but is it any more-so than shooting out past 40-yds when your effective target area is severely restricted and any of those things you mentioned can happen at any time? I don't think so. Not when the arrow is designed for that scenario.
Another question, why do trajectory and time-to-target only apply to heavy arrows at normal ranges but not light arrows at extreme ranges and with a smaller target? It's actually more impactful in the latter scenario.
Final question: Thirty years ago we had slower bows and heavier arrows. Seeing as bows have gotten progressively faster over the years, why do we need progressively lighter arrows? Seems people are more focused on developing their shooting skills rather than their woodsmanship skills. I've never heard of a trad hunter that panics about arrow velocity lol

(edit) P.S. Ranch Fairy has repeatedly stated that he is a salesman, and the personality is 100% intentional because it keeps people talking about him. Disagree with him all you want, but you can't say he's wrong about that! Every time he posts a video there is a new thread on AT within 24 hrs to nitpick away at it

 

[Jtcustomarchery]

Exactly why I refuse to wear my seatbelt. Why would I do that when I can just not get in a car accident?

Heavier than you need arrows make you more likely to hit heavy bones. Seatbelts don’t make you more likely to wreck cars. Nice try though.

 

[1/2 Bubble Off]

What percentage of the kill shot is heavy bone when your target buck walks up 20 yds away from your tree stand at a quartering-to angle? I can't be the only one who encounters this scenario more often than a 40+ yard, perfectly still broadside shot opportunity. In fact I know I'm not, considering average whitetail harvest range is between 15-20 yds. I'm not shooting past 40-yds with any arrow, but with a heavy arrow, you can take that quartering-to shot every time.
Some may consider that unethical, but is it any more-so than shooting out past 40-yds when your effective target area is severely restricted and any of those things you mentioned can happen at any time? I don't think so. Not when the arrow is designed for that scenario.
Another question, why do trajectory and time-to-target only apply to heavy arrows at normal ranges but not light arrows at extreme ranges and with a smaller target? It's actually more impactful in the latter scenario.
Final question: Thirty years ago we had slower bows and heavier arrows. Seeing as bows have gotten progressively faster over the years, why do we need progressively lighter arrows? Seems people are more focused on developing their shooting skills rather than their woodsmanship skills. I've never heard of a trad hunter that panics about arrow velocity lol

(edit) P.S. Ranch Fairy has repeatedly stated that he is a salesman, and the personality is 100% intentional because it keeps people talking about him. Disagree with him all you want, but you can't say he's wrong about that! Every time he posts a video there is a new thread on AT within 24 hrs to nitpick away at it

It's statements like this that make me dislike the RF even more... too many people think because they snort the fairy dust, they can take sketchy shots. I've heard so many people say "I shoot XX pounds with a XXX+1 gr arrow.... I don't fear the shoulder"... Coincidentally, my buddy with the tracking dog says people like that are the reason he's in business!!!

 

[RevBelleville]

... I'm not shooting past 40-yds with any arrow, but with a heavy arrow, you can take that quartering-to shot every time...

But that does not make it right, nor does a heavy arrow give you a license to do so, just because some DB named after some salad dressing says so... Every animal deserves a fair chance at a quick and ethical kill shot...

 

[DAC9]

... I'm not shooting past 40-yds with any arrow, but with a heavy arrow, you can take that quartering-to shot every time...

But that does not make it right, nor does a heavy arrow give you a license to do so, just because some DB named after some salad dressing says so... Every animal deserves a fair chance at a quick and ethical kill shot...

The salad dressing insult got me lol.

But to a point I made earlier, it’s about human error. Yes, a broadside shot is more ethical and lethal, but the human emotion of excitement isn’t gonna let their target buck walk because he wasn’t 100% perpendicular with their arrows path. Not to mention if it’s the only shot option they’ll have on him due to trees, laurel bushes, etc. because if you’ve been in the woods you know how these scenarios play out.

 

[just_passin_thru]

Another question, why do trajectory and time-to-target only apply to heavy arrows at normal ranges but not light arrows at extreme ranges and with a smaller target? It's actually more impactful in the latter scenario.

To this point, I’d say that trajectory and time-to-target suffer (more) for those heavy arrows at normal ranges. For example on my home range, there’s an apple tree between me and my target, I can shoot from 40 with 450ish grain, 280 fps arrows no problem. But heavier arrows at around 260 start to clip low hanging branches. Pretty small difference really, but it makes a clean shot sketchy or unreliable based on that trajectory difference.

I don’t think (thoughtful or intelligent) conversation on this subject is promoting hunting shots with light arrows at extreme ranges or on smaller targets. More so that at reasonable distances the heavy arrows with mortar trajectory can be problematic.

 

[pinwheeled]

I used to follow his content pretty closely, but lately it’s been very redundant like he is trying to say the same thing several different ways and it’s not working.

Oh you mean kind of like on here. So many ways to start threads about arrow weight and they all end up the same.

 

[SpoonNcrockpotTrophy]

But that does not make it right, nor does a heavy arrow give you a license to do so, just because some DB named after some salad dressing says so... Every animal deserves a fair chance at a quick and ethical kill shot...

Sir- I for one, dislike salad, and any topping that could potentially be applied to it.

That is all. Carry on kind men.

 

[ThatEffinDude]

I packed three bull elk out of the mountains last week that were killed with middle of the road arrows and mechanicals. All complete pass throughs, short and substantial blood trails.

The heavy arrow weight and tiny broadhead deal is blown completely out of proportion. Don’t hit heavy bone in the first place, and you don’t have issues.

Well shoot sounds easy enough what do we do when the animal moves? I’m a middle of the road arrow as well only 500 grains on one bow 550 on the other but animals move no matter if your the best shooter in the world your best shot ever just turned into a not so good shot and hit heavy bone now what? I also don’t think it’s blown out of proportion as since I went away from mechanical heads and 430 grain arrows to something a little more substantial and iron will heads I’ve went through everything I’ve hit even heavy bone where before they did not lost several animals that way with 430 and mechanical heads. So for me it wasn’t blown out of proportion. Ether way shoot what ya want it’s your money but saying just don’t hit heavy bone seems like wishful thinking sometimes..

 

[jango_bmx11]

But that does not make it right, nor does a heavy arrow give you a license to do so, just because some DB named after some salad dressing says so... Every animal deserves a fair chance at a quick and ethical kill shot...

It's statements like this that make me dislike the RF even more... too many people think because they snort the fairy dust, they can take sketchy shots. I've heard so many people say "I shoot XX pounds with a XXX+1 gr arrow.... I don't fear the shoulder"... Coincidentally, my buddy with the tracking dog says people like that are the reason he's in business!!!

Just going to take a moment to point out the hypocrisy on multiple fronts here. Y'all bash on Ashby for using Cape buffalo to collect data because they're so large and bone dense that it's totally irrelevant to whitetail, but simultaneously believe that nothing short of a javelin missile can penetrate a deer shoulder and therefore it's unethical to attempt such a thing. You also didn't have any problem with the idea of taking extreme long range shots and the ethical implications of that.

For the record, I personally align somewhere in the middle and certainly don't go out of my way to shoot at shoulders. I also don't hinge on Ranch Fairy's every word like you think, but I do know there are deeply troubling contradictions within the light arrow side of the community. You've absolutely proven my point, so thanks!

 

[1/2 Bubble Off]

Just going to take a moment to point out the hypocrisy on multiple fronts here. Y'all bash on Ashby for using Cape buffalo to collect data because they're so large and bone dense that it's totally irrelevant to whitetail, but simultaneously believe that nothing short of a javelin missile can penetrate a deer shoulder and therefore it's unethical to attempt such a thing. You also didn't have any problem with the idea of taking extreme long range shots and the ethical implications of that.

For the record, I personally align somewhere in the middle and certainly don't go out of my way to shoot at shoulders. I also don't hinge on Ranch Fairy's every word like you think, but I do know there are deeply troubling contradictions within the light arrow side of the community. You've absolutely proven my point, so thanks!

1) I didn't see anyone advocating for long range shots in this thread and MOST folks here are quick to jump on anyone who wants to launch those bombs.

2) You don't need a Javelin missile to penetrate a deer shoulder... but it isn't advisable with archery equipment. My buddy runs a tracking dog and a large percentage of the deer they find, are shoulder hits.

3) I don't bash Ashby. But I also don't necessarily believe his (or the foundation) word is gospel. Modern compounds have plenty of potential energy which is a component of penetration.

4) As I've mentioned in this thread... I've spent time in both camps and also have found my gear seems to perform optimally in the 7-9 gpp range. For me, that's in the 450-550gr range. It gives me a trajectory that I can live with and plenty of "oomph" when the metal meets the meat.

 

[CTXtradman]

These posts are always entertaining. I don’t understand why folks get so divided on arrow weight, broadhead type, or bow poundage. Everyone’s different and their opinion is right to them so yours must be wrong…. Just a constant circle. One of these days we will see folks goin back to light and fast and poo on those with heavy arrows.

 

[PG2]

I love how he talks about “His” pin gaps and compares setups. He can barely hit a 6” circle at 30 yards and I’m supposed to trust his pins? Not to mention no mention of drag on a huge single bevel vs a mechanical lol. Guy is a clown.

 

[Atxjason]

I dont have a lab radar and i test the drop /trajectory differences.

Perfect arrow flight is actually not as important as accuracy, accuracy trumps all

If youre trying to prove/disprove something, facts and data kinda matter.

Of course you have to be able to hit your target, and if all we were talking about was target practice or hitting targets, then I would agree. I thought we were talking about hunting arrows. My mistake.

 

[Jon maverick]

This makes me laugh!! Just hauled a massive bodied 5x5 elk off a mountain in utah. 446grain arrow 70lbs 28.5 draw with a beast head 54 yard shot went through like butter the bull took 4 steps and tipped over. Heavy arrows?? Thats a no from me dawg! Speed kills end of story.

 

[Poe Outdoors]

His analogy of why you want a pass through and there is medical science proving that you dont want a shaft in the cavity pissed me off. Compairing it to if a human was impailed by a metal rod the dr. Would want you to keep it in. Yes, but the animal aint gonna lay there like oh **** dont move let me call 911 LOL!! That animal is running for its life busting through everything and that broadhead if inside the cavity is just grinding away causing more damage!!

You haven't killed too many game animals have you?

 

[Kessick]

no it doesn’t. Shoot a 350 and 650 grain arrow. If both are being shot at the exact same speed, the poi, trajectory and all else will be the same. Gravity is constant. That’s like saying a car and a train dropped from the Empire State Building the train would hit first because it’s heavier. They would hit at the same time.

Yes it does. A lighter arrow absolutely loses speed faster than a heavier arrow. There are plenty of tests on YouTube that will verify this.

 

[Kessick]

Even though a 450gr arrow from launch to 60yds does loose a higher % of its speed than the 650gr arrow does there is still has one HUGE problem!!! The 450gr arrow at 60yds is still going FASTER than the 650gr arrow is at launch!!!

I don’t think that’s a problem. That’s just a pro/con of different weights.